Gas water heater, tank vs tankless

Can I get some opinions on which way to go here? Home is 3 1/2 baths, 4 occupants (so max of two showers running @ once)

tank water heater would need to be power vented, so 50gal is in the $900 range, tankless could be moved to where water main enteres the house, so direct vent would be the way to go which puts it just a little more ($1k to $1,200). What size gas line do the extra btu's of a tankless model require? the line from outside is about 60', mostly straight.

Information, experience, (especially with specific brands with the tankless) positives and negatives are all welcome. I know I'm going with gas, but I'm just not sure which type of water heater to get.

tia,

jc

Reply to
Joe
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  • Well initial cost is more * Operating expense is less * Lifetime expense should be less * Some inconvenience * Possible reduced resale value. People tend not to like something they are not familiar with when buying a home.

So for me, it would be a matter of the trade off of reduced life cost vs possible inconvenience. In my household there is little chance for the inconvenience so it should be a go. But when it comes time for a replacement of my water heater, I am going to guess I will pick a standard model. Not logical, but I am just not all that sure of them.

Reply to
sligoNoSPAMjoe

"... tankless could be moved to where the water main enters the house..."

Huh?

Reply to
HeyBub

I would get a tank unless you are really pressed for space. The tankless are more expensive and I don't see any long-term energy savings. A teen counts as two people using hot water.

Reply to
Phisherman

The tank electric water heater I'm replacing is larger than any tankless model, therefore, if I go that route (tank), I would want to keep it where it currently sits next to the furnace (which is on an interior basement wall), because I can enclose both in a mechanicals closet. This placement situation is what would lead to my needing a powervent ($$) model *if* I decide to go with the gas tank model. *If* I go tankless, the space requirement would not be as great, and I could easily move it against an exterior basement wall (next to the main) which would cause more effort in plumbing from the tankless to where the existing hwh pipes are, but would save me money during installation because venting would be cheaper. The double-walled stainless steel vent pipes for tankless models are *not* cheap.

sorry I wasn't clearer 1st time around.

jc

Reply to
Joe

I have tankless and am happy. But with tankless savings drop way off on multiple continous users, maybe you save 5%, but you will need the biggest most expensive 200,000 btu unit for 4. That means a big gas pipe. You would first need your line tested to see if it will give you the flow you need. In winter when all gas apliances in your house are on and pressure is lower you might have to do extra work to get that extra 200,000 btu you will need for colder winter water. AO Smith Vertex is maybe one of the most efficent Tanks of about 83 EF. For single-2 people use, vacation homes tankless are great but with 4 you need to research it and would possibly not like the drawbacks. A big tankless might cost alot for the gas line needed. A condensing Vertex is as efficent as most tankless at 82-83 E.F. I think, Its High recovery but it costs $

Reply to
ransley

electric tankless for large family? live where it gets cold in winter?

just figure on a MAJOR elecrical upgrade 200AMPS just to heat water, plus 200 amps for your existing service.......

the electrical upgrade will cost thousands

all the bwater heated MUST be heated instaneously, that takes a lot of current.

since electrical water heating is 100% efficent less just minimal tank standby losses you will never save any money.;

had a friend price a electrical tankless 5 grand for install.

the vent line is a minor issue...

your power company should be asked they may need to upgrade lines and or transformer in your area....

were you trying to save energy / money or desiring unlimited hot water?

Reply to
hallerb

rereading your post so you heat water with electric? and are thinking of converting to natural gas? first get yur chimney inspected.

gas tankless have a myriad of downsides. the forced vent tankless mean no hot water if electric fails, none in tank since theres no tank. electric needed to run power vent

Reply to
hallerb

I thought he said Ng, Tankless electric 4 people 3.5 bath might be 2 Bosch electric tankless and need 240a and cost like you said 5000. The electric co would love you.

Reply to
ransley

electric tankless for large family? live where it gets cold in winter?

nooo, i'm replacing an *electric* hwh with either a gas tank hwh *or* a gas tankless hwh.

just figure on a MAJOR elecrical upgrade 200AMPS just to heat water, plus 200 amps for your existing service.......

the electrical upgrade will cost thousands

all the bwater heated MUST be heated instaneously, that takes a lot of current.

since electrical water heating is 100% efficent less just minimal tank standby losses you will never save any money.;

had a friend price a electrical tankless 5 grand for install.

the vent line is a minor issue...

your power company should be asked they may need to upgrade lines and or transformer in your area....

were you trying to save energy / money or desiring unlimited hot water?

Reply to
Joe

rereading your post so you heat water with electric? and are thinking of converting to natural gas? first get yur chimney inspected.

gas tankless have a myriad of downsides. the forced vent tankless mean no hot water if electric fails, none in tank since theres no tank. electric needed to run power vent

I didn't say it would be forced tankless. it would be direct tankless, or power vent tank. I understand that if the power went out with a powervent tank, i wouldn't have hw beyond what was in the tank, but if power is out long enough to allow the water to cool down, i've other problems. Plus, i probably won't be taking a shower in the dark, so i'm considering that point moot.

thanks,

jc

Reply to
Joe

I have tankless and am happy. But with tankless savings drop way off on multiple continous users, maybe you save 5%, but you will need the biggest most expensive 200,000 btu unit for 4. That means a big gas pipe. You would first need your line tested to see if it will give you the flow you need. In winter when all gas apliances in your house are on and pressure is lower you might have to do extra work to get that extra 200,000 btu you will need for colder winter water. AO Smith Vertex is maybe one of the most efficent Tanks of about 83 EF. For single-2 people use, vacation homes tankless are great but with 4 you need to research it and would possibly not like the drawbacks. A big tankless might cost alot for the gas line needed. A condensing Vertex is as efficent as most tankless at 82-83 E.F. I think, Its High recovery but it costs $

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yeah, I just bought one. Haven't installed it yet as I need to do some plumbing rearranging due to a bathroom remodel above where it will go. Specs are great. Will have to upgrade the gas line from the 1/2 inch the old water heater uses to 3/4 inch because the tank has 100,000 BTU input.

Reply to
EXT

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Only 100,000 input, what brand , my 117000 input Bosch I thought was the smallest and it wont do 2 showers at once unless ground water temp stays near 70f. Ng Pipe size is dependant on length and testing. I needed 3/4 at maybe 10 ft. One inch is possibly needed on a long run. When my furnace kicks on I measure a maybe 1-3 degree drop in temp. You must test and figure in low winter pressures.

Reply to
ransley

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Only 100,000 input, what brand , my 117000 input Bosch I thought was the smallest and it wont do 2 showers at once unless ground water temp stays near 70f. Ng Pipe size is dependant on length and testing. I needed 3/4 at maybe 10 ft. One inch is possibly needed on a long run. When my furnace kicks on I measure a maybe 1-3 degree drop in temp. You must test and figure in low winter pressures.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Are you talking tankless or tank water heaters.

I just purchased an A.O. Smith "Vertex" tank water heater. They come in two models, the economy GPHE-50 at 76,000 BTU and the one that I have is the GDHE-50 at 100,000 BTU input to replace my old rental at 36,000 BTU. They claim that it can deliver 164 gallons of hot water per hour at a 90 degree temperature raise. It won't need to come close to that to satisfy my needs.

Reply to
EXT

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Oh Tank I thought you meant tankless, I have an AO Cyclone tank condensing unit in an apt, no issues for 12 years. Does the Vertex have a clean out panel on the water tank. Mine need the muffler its so loud. The Vertex is tops.

Reply to
ransley

Tankless is the way to go. It's the future. I've never known anyone who installed a tankless water heater and said they regretted the decision.

It's just so much more logical: unlimited hot water when you need it, and no waste of energy when you don't. The claim that they don't save much energy is a crock of shit, as you'll realize the first time you go on vacation and don't have to remember to turn off the water heater.

Reply to
<nospam
1.news.tds.net...

but I&#39;m

Sure they save energy, it&#39;s just a question of how much versus the increased upfront cost, whether you need to upgrade gas, etc. If you don&#39;t turn off your water heater when you go on vacation, how much do you think that amounts to? A dollar? My entire gas bill in summer, which is the tank water heater plus outside gas grill, is maybe $20. That includes usage for the month, as well as standby loss. Other factors to consider are the loss of hot water during power outages and that people have reported problems with the units not firing up with small draw situations.

Reply to
trader4

messagenews:i1Cgl.1012$ snipped-for-privacy@newsreading01.news.tds.net...

Sure they save energy, it&#39;s just a question of how much versus the increased upfront cost, whether you need to upgrade gas, etc. If you don&#39;t turn off your water heater when you go on vacation, how much do you think that amounts to? A dollar? My entire gas bill in summer, which is the tank water heater plus outside gas grill, is maybe $20. That includes usage for the month, as well as standby loss. Other factors to consider are the loss of hot water during power outages and that people have reported problems with the units not firing up with small draw situations. _____________

Do you shower in the dark?

As for small draw problems, this was addressed years ago by most manufacturers. One may still run into it on very cheap units.

Reply to
<nospam
1.news.tds.net...

but I&#39;m

Many are unhappy because they dont test gas supply with competing apliances on and factor winters reduced gas flow. I have one and am happy mine was under 500, sure you save but not as much with a big family. Figure with a big unit you could spend 1500-3000 for tankless. Now you weigh in payback at 15-3000, the game changes. At $500 its no question I won with 4-5 yr payback. Its not for all but should be with a big Gov credit, like 80% of unit price, after all we give billions to just Mid East countries that hate us.

Reply to
ransley

Definitely tank. At least 50 gallon, maybe 60.

A single tankless heater just won&#39;t be able to keep up with the demand of up to three showers plus someone in the kitchen. You know it&#39;ll happen.

Reply to
mkirsch1

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