I'm having trouble with the numbers . Rinnai has better warranties. I'm looking for a system that support kitchen dishwaser (used allot) , 2 bath rooms , walk-in shower / soaker tub , gas powered. What are the important numbers to help decide which is better ? gas flow ? Indoor vs outdoor ?
Look at Takagi they have the only condensing 93% efficent unit, so shop, you are not done...
The problem is their is no installer in my area of the state.
I assume your going gas tankless but consider the following before purchase............
gas will require a large new gas line directly to the tankless perhaps even a new meter and may require a new flue, all those BTUs have to go somewhere, the install will be expensive, tankless will require routinue maintence by qualified techniocians $$$ if the tankless quits working NO HOT WATER AT ALL, the costs o do all this will exceed the standby losses, the payback exceeds the tankless warranty and expected life.....
in areas that get cold in the winter low incoming water temperatures may generate lower output temperature, and chilly showers. unit must be sized to maximum flow. OPs going to be a large costly unit.
standby losses of regular tanks, foam insulated today are pretty low, and in the winter the standby losses go to heat your home so they really arent lost. although in the summer they can add to heat load a little.
in low flow situations like a faucet open a little to wash your hands the heater may not trip on and you will have cold hand washes.
when you turn on a hot water faucet the tankless must detect flow, and turn on burners before you get any hot water. so assume some water and sewer waste, heck that cost may exceeed the standby losses.
regular tanks are long life dependable appliances and pretty cheap too. say 500 bucks installed with a 10 year life. 50 bucks per year cost thats not even a decent candy bar cost per week.
good luck with your tankless although you may be better off with a 75 or 100 gallon high 75.000 BTU tank, it will give you nearly unlimited hot water without some of the downsides.
UNLIMITED hot water may result in people showering forever increasing dramatically your water sewer and heating bill. teenagers espically......
Alright Hallerb now that you said all the negatives and since you dont own one, as I do, and since you put them down since you dont own one, Tell the OP he will save money with one as I do. About 28% a year andno ive never needed any maintanance in 6 years, so mine has paid for itself. Gee its nice commenting on people that never used a unit, but cut it down because they dont own one and think they are bad. Dumb.
ide quoted text -
hey I just talked to a local fellow who bought a tankless last spring. he complains of slow arrival of hot water. cold hand washing and says his hasnt saved any money. he also says its a water and sewer waster, because of the lag time between water on and hot water arrived:(
your claim of 28% I believe is really inflated. my 50 gallon 75K BTU tank has a operating cost of under 275 bucks per year according to the energy guide.
assuming your savings claim is true thats 72 bucks a year.
The OP tankless will easily cost 2 grand installed, given his large number of loads, it will be a large unit.
before the OP goes tankless he should be informed of the possible downsides to his expensive purchase.
plus others who have lived with tankless report these issues.
most notably they state the 2 best days for a tankless owner, the day its installed and the day its replaced with a standard tank, their words not mine......
If I get time I will google back previous discussions about tankless and the actual owners reports
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And I am doing nothing but changing out old tank units for tankless units and hearing nothing but praise and admiration.
Typical costs are higher for the tankless units and if you have hard water they do need to be backflushed every year or so, but that can be done by the homeowner and the kits costs
19 bucks.Energy savings are right at 25-30 percent. If the unit is installed in the same place as the old tank unit, the hot water will get to the fixtures in the same amount of time.
The whole house units require a 3/4" line and that can sometimes be as much as 250 bucks or so, but usually there is already a 3/4" line either at the unit, or very close. Out of
30 or so units installed, not one has had to upgrade the gas meter. The flue is not even required on most outdoor units as they vent themselves. I have had to upgrade the flue on three indoor units. Total cost was about 75 bucks each time; take out the old, put in the new. Big deal.I think that haller has had a bad experience with someone and is letting it take over his life. I own one and I install them and they are good units.
You do know that in Europe and Asia tank units are non existant, don't you?
Nobody had said anything about the setup. (backup or booster system , parallel installation ) needed or not . I'm guessing that you will need some type of circulation device at each faucet (i.e hand washing).
so you sell them? so your guaranteed unbiased:(
tankless are standard in europe since tank types are premium installs, for the wealthy.
someone here mentioned a recirculation system for far away fixtures.
can recirculate be done affordably using tankless?
on venting for a indoor tankless, and since most of the country has freezing weather at least occasionally the vast majority probably do their water heating indoors.
a regular tank is say 40,000 bTUs a tankless perhaps 5 times that.
if your venting up a chimney that will require a larger flue.
at least my post summaries many but not all of the possible downsides to going tankless. before somone spends a grand or two they need to be aware of all the issues both good and bad.
last time this was discussed one poster who lives with a tankless complained it was noisey burners turning on and off constantly bugged his wife.
will google some of those posts tonight.
its sad people want to improve their life, and save energy, but not all of these things really improve things, and many arent cost efficent at all:(
If the tanklesss is sized right, and yes gas is the issue but it must be tested under a full load of competing apliances with a Manometer , which few "Techs" figure it out, then its worth it, Boats are in the catagory of happiest days, bought and sold, Tankless hacked in also. Mine works because its set up right. The instructions are clear with the units..
Question about using the chimney . Any dangers of using the chimney - Fire wood vs gas fireplace along with tankless vent. I'm thinking of putting in a soapstone insert and using wood in the future. As of right now the fireplace is gas (hasn't been turn on in while). How far up the fireplace does the vent piping have to be ?
depends......
is the flue lined with ceramic liner or just bricks? before considering use get the interior inspected with a camera.
even ceramic liners can have troubles.
you must be sure the hearth is large enough for the soapstone insert.
really need some estimates by chimney pros........
flue liners go all the way to the top
I guess i will have to wait until the hvac/plumber comes out to give an estimate.
best to get at least 3 estimates, check references on all, and remember lowest price isnt everything.......
I recently bought a Bosch Aquastar 2400E, and I installed it myself. No, I am not in the appliance biz, but I can take care of my own appliances. The Aquastar replaced an old, leaking 50 gallon natural gas tank-type heater.
Now on to your comments: yes, arrival of tankless hot water is slow. It has to be, since the tankless doesn't store any hot water. No, tankless is not necessarily a water waster -- that depends. For short bursts of hot water 1/2 hour apart, like frequent hand washing by family and/or guests, one will use more water & gas to obtain hot water. For longer duration uses, there is not so much wasteage.
In short, tank-type water heaters are good for faster delivery of hot water, but at flow rates above their recovery rate, they *will* run out at some point. Tankless water heaters have a noticeably longer lag time before hot water appears, but once it does, it *never* ends; however, too much demand on a tankless *will* result in cooler hot water.
I have been learning how to plan my domestic time around this new tankless water heater in order to minimize water & gas waste. For example, with the tank type heater, I would always take a shower
*before* running the washing machine and/or dishwasher so *I* wouldn't run out of hot water (although something or somebody else might). I would also check with the kids to see if they were planning on showering, and if so, I would wait until they were done & the tank was back up to temperature. Now, I can run washing machine, dishwasher, and take a shower too and not run out. Or do them one right after the other and not run out. Three at once seems to be the maximum limit though -- just like the instruction manual says. My shower heads are 2 gallons/minute flow. I have tested the heater's limit: with the Aquastar thermostat set to 120F, I ran both showers and the kitchen sink all at full flow hot for 5 minutes, and all held steady at 115F. I turned on the washing machine full hot & all temps dropped to 105F in about a minute. Not too shabby. I could probably have bumped the Aquastar up to 130F to compensate if I had wanted to.Here are some facts comparing cost savings: My ancient tank-type heater still had the yellow "EnergyGuide" sticker on it. The tank-type estimated annual therms were 271. The Aquastar EnergyGuide estimate says
177. At $0.91/therm, that works out to $247/year for the tanker, and $161 for the tankless, yielding a savings of $86/year. As the price of natural gas rises, so will my savings. Also, in my case I have one child about to leave home, and another who may go in a few years... allowing the tankless to remain "off" for ever-increasing lengths of time, which will mean even more savings on the gas bill as time goes on.You are right, and your point is well taken: it is essential to properly size a tankless unit for demand vs. temperature rise and flow rate. That said, it is also important to size a tank-type hot water heater as well.
Here are some facts about my heater replacement cost: A new Whirlpool
50-gallon tanker was $430 at Lowe's, and my Bosch was $998 at the same Lowe's (a popular U.S. homeowner's supply store). The Bosch also qualifies for a $300 federal income tax credit (expires 31-DEC-2007). Doing the math, I am now losing $268 for choosing to go tankless vs. tanker.Add to that loss about $75 for 3/4 copper pipe & fittings, $35 for a new
3/4" gas flex line (gotta have a large one for high BTU tankless installations; fortunately for me the steel line is 3/4" all the way out to the meter), and 8 feet of new stainless 3-inch flue (can't use the original tanker's galvanized due to the tankless' almost continuous condensation in the flue) which came to $325; all of which were needed to do this one-time tank-to-tankless conversion and I'm in the hole about $700 (Next time, if there is a next time, the cost will *theoretically* be just for the tankless heater alone). At the current price of natural gas, payback time for choosing tankless vs. tanker will take approximately ($700 tankless vs. tanker added expense divided by $86/year savings) 8.1 years. I'm OK with that.But IMHO there is more than just money involved here. I chose to go tankless because it uses less energy in the long run -- a responsible thing to do in this day and age, I believe -- and I have no regrets in that regard. I am learning to adjust my lifestyle to compensate for my new tankless heater's idiosyncracies, as previously mentioned. Plus, there is the endless hot water advantage -- upon which someone else in this thread sagely commented can also lead to "endless hot shower advantage" in some circumstances ;^)
It is interesting to note that tankless water heaters have been in continuous use in Europe (I lived in Belgium 1969 - 1970 and can't recall seeing a tanker), Japan, and I assume many other countries where natural energy resources such as gas, propane, and electricity have always been more expensive commodities than they have been in the U.S. where I currently live. So this "new" tankless concept is not really all that new. And the energy savings are very real.
I agree 100% with that statement. An informed consumer is a wise consumer. In my situation, tankless came out ahead. Your mileage may vary.
I don't feel this way, at least not yet, and I don't think I ever will. I'm not a "tankless evangelist" (say, would that be a "tankless job"? hehe) -- given my situation, I think I did the right thing. That said, if tankless works in my situation, perhaps it would be an appropriate choice for many other homeowners/residential income property owners as well, if only they were aware of the option & did the research.
Thanks for reading me.
[massive snippage; read OP for great details]
Where are you located? I'm considering tankless for if/when we ever build a house, but we have long cold winters up by Lake Ontario, and the heat dissipation of the water heater tank in the basement isn't a bad thing, per se, during winters, and the tank technology seems to have simpler problems to solve compared with the tankless (plus, some areas where we live don't have natural gas supply).
I have five tankless units installed at my home, office and rental units, and I see them at home inspections here in Chicago. They work well, but there ARE some f potential installation issues, I've put up a web page about my experience with tankless units here:
[thanx for the compliment, I spent some time wanting my post to be accurate]
I am located approximately 40 miles northwest of Los Angeles, California. I'm familiar with your climate; my father lives in Buffalo, NY and keeps his sailboat at a marina in Toronto. I lived for 15 years in the Eastern Sierra region of California where the temperature can drop to below zero F overnight. I am aware of the complications that cold weather can bring. And I really enjoy the Mediterranean climate down here in Southen California! ;^)
I'm convinced that tankless is the way to go, with a few exceptions. Lack of natural gas is not an issue as tankless heaters can run on propane or electricity. If saving $$ in the long haul and/or enviromental concerns are priorities, tankless is the solution IMHO.
Regarding the Lake Ontario region, one exception to the above statement that comes to mind is the possibility of any standing water inside a tankless heater freezing and damaging the heat exchanger. If your basement never freezes, then that would be a good tankless location. However, damage would certainly happen if the heater were mounted outside the house -- and Bosch (and others) make externally-mountable units. Tankless would not a good choice for a summer cabin, for instance, unless any standing water could be completely drained in preparation for winter. I suppose one could aim a 150 watt heat lamp at a tankless heater to prevent it from freezing, but that might negate some or all of the tankless' energy savings. Ideally, you'd want a drainback valve as used on solar hot water collectors in cold country, but I don't think the tankless heaters are available with such a valve.
Before installing my Bosch heater, I removed its steel cover just to have a "look under the hood [bonnet]". There is a lot of stuff in there, but I can't remember whether or not I saw a drain plug. I would not want to take a chance on a $1,000 heater that might have some trapped water that could freeze and do something expensive...
Let's see if anyone reads this & has some experience with tankless hot water heaters installed in places where freezing temperatures are a concern.
Well, environmental concerns are my top priority along with saving $$ while conserving energy, so I suspect I'll be installing one of these babies if/when we build, along with passive solar heating panels on the south side of the eventual house to heat the indoor space. I would not install an exterior unit, only one in the basement, which I would probably build with insulated cement block. I also am reading up on how to heat the water with solar (Mother Earth News has some good references).
I do have a colleague who installed a tankless recently in his city house, so I should email him and ask for a report. And Buffalo is a wonderful city; hope they can straighten out their budgetary messes.
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