I'm having trouble with the numbers . Rinnai has better warranties. I'm
looking for a system that support kitchen dishwaser (used allot) , 2
bath rooms , walk-in shower / soaker tub , gas powered. What are the
important numbers to help decide which is better ? gas flow ? Indoor vs
I assume your going gas tankless but consider the following before
gas will require a large new gas line directly to the tankless perhaps
even a new meter and may
require a new flue, all those BTUs have to go somewhere, the install
will be expensive, tankless will require routinue maintence by
qualified techniocians $$$ if the tankless quits working NO HOT WATER
AT ALL, the costs o do all this will exceed the standby losses, the
the tankless warranty and expected life.....
in areas that get cold in the winter low incoming water temperatures
may generate lower output temperature, and chilly showers. unit must
be sized to maximum flow. OPs going to be a large costly unit.
standby losses of regular tanks, foam insulated today are pretty low,
and in the winter the standby losses go to heat your home so they
really arent lost. although in the summer they can add to heat load a
in low flow situations like a faucet open a little to wash your hands
the heater may not trip on and you will have cold hand washes.
when you turn on a hot water faucet the tankless must detect flow, and
turn on burners before you get any hot water. so assume some water and
sewer waste, heck that cost may exceeed the standby losses.
regular tanks are long life dependable appliances and pretty cheap
too. say 500 bucks installed with a 10 year life. 50 bucks per year
cost thats not even a decent candy bar cost per week.
good luck with your tankless although you may be better off with a 75
or 100 gallon high 75.000 BTU tank, it will give you nearly unlimited
hot water without some of the downsides.
UNLIMITED hot water may result in people showering forever increasing
dramatically your water sewer and heating bill. teenagers
Alright Hallerb now that you said all the negatives and since you dont
own one, as I do, and since you put them down since you dont own one,
Tell the OP he will save money with one as I do. About 28% a year
andno ive never needed any maintanance in 6 years, so mine has paid
for itself. Gee its nice commenting on people that never used a unit,
but cut it down because they dont own one and think they are bad. Dumb.
hey I just talked to a local fellow who bought a tankless last spring.
he complains of slow arrival of hot water. cold hand washing and says
his hasnt saved any money. he also says its a water and sewer waster,
because of the lag time between water on and hot water arrived:(
your claim of 28% I believe is really inflated. my 50 gallon 75K BTU
tank has a operating cost of under 275 bucks per year according to the
assuming your savings claim is true thats 72 bucks a year.
The OP tankless will easily cost 2 grand installed, given his large
number of loads, it will be a large unit.
before the OP goes tankless he should be informed of the possible
downsides to his expensive purchase.
plus others who have lived with tankless report these issues.
most notably they state the 2 best days for a tankless owner, the day
its installed and the day its replaced with a standard tank, their
words not mine......
If I get time I will google back previous discussions about tankless
and the actual owners reports
And I am doing nothing but changing out old tank units for
tankless units and hearing nothing but praise and admiration.
Typical costs are higher for the tankless units and if you
have hard water they do need to be backflushed every year or
so, but that can be done by the homeowner and the kits costs
Energy savings are right at 25-30 percent. If the unit is
installed in the same place as the old tank unit, the hot
water will get to the fixtures in the same amount of time.
The whole house units require a 3/4" line and that can
sometimes be as much as 250 bucks or so, but usually there is
already a 3/4" line either at the unit, or very close. Out of
30 or so units installed, not one has had to upgrade the gas
meter. The flue is not even required on most outdoor units as
they vent themselves. I have had to upgrade the flue on three
indoor units. Total cost was about 75 bucks each time; take
out the old, put in the new. Big deal.
I think that haller has had a bad experience with someone and
is letting it take over his life. I own one and I install
them and they are good units.
You do know that in Europe and Asia tank units are non
existant, don't you?
Nobody had said anything about the setup. (backup or booster system ,
parallel installation ) needed or not . I'm guessing that you will need
some type of circulation device at each faucet (i.e hand washing).
at least my post summaries many but not all of the possible downsides
to going tankless. before somone spends a grand or two they need to be
aware of all the issues both good and bad.
last time this was discussed one poster who lives with a tankless
complained it was noisey burners turning on and off constantly bugged
will google some of those posts tonight.
its sad people want to improve their life, and save energy, but not
all of these things really improve things, and many arent cost
efficent at all:(
If the tanklesss is sized right, and yes gas is the issue but it must
be tested under a full load of competing apliances with a Manometer ,
which few "Techs" figure it out, then its worth it, Boats are in the
catagory of happiest days, bought and sold, Tankless hacked in also.
Mine works because its set up right. The instructions are clear with
so you sell them? so your guaranteed unbiased:(
tankless are standard in europe since tank types are premium installs,
for the wealthy.
someone here mentioned a recirculation system for far away fixtures.
can recirculate be done affordably using tankless?
on venting for a indoor tankless, and since most of the country has
freezing weather at least occasionally the vast majority probably do
their water heating indoors.
a regular tank is say 40,000 bTUs a tankless perhaps 5 times that.
if your venting up a chimney that will require a larger flue.
Question about using the chimney . Any dangers of using the chimney -
Fire wood vs gas fireplace along with tankless vent. I'm thinking of
putting in a soapstone insert and using wood in the future. As of right
now the fireplace is gas (hasn't been turn on in while). How far up the
fireplace does the vent piping have to be ?
is the flue lined with ceramic liner or just bricks? before
considering use get the interior inspected with a camera.
even ceramic liners can have troubles.
you must be sure the hearth is large enough for the soapstone insert.
really need some estimates by chimney pros........
flue liners go all the way to the top
I don't sell them. I am a general contractor. They are just
one of the new popular items since people have become aware of
them and how much energy use they can save. I haven't seen
any of my customers complain about them. The last one that I
installed cost $845, the install was 300 dollars and she got a
200 dollar rebate from the city.
I have one, with two baths, a kitchen, dishwasher and wife and
2 kids. Haven't run out of hot water since I put it in. I
got a Rinnai and it has been performing for 5 years now. I
cannot compare energy savings head to head, because I went
from an electric water heater, to a gas tankless, but my
electric bill went down by $45 dollars a month (It averages
about 250-300 per month).
You seem to be trying to convince people that they are spawn
from hell and I am just trying to present the honest facts. I
think you are the one who is biased. It makes no difference
to me what the homeowner wants to install, I make money on the
whole job, not just one part.
honestly it doesnt matter to me what anyone chooses to buy for their
my issue with tankless are the large number of potential downsides to
a expensive supposed upgrade, which may disappoint the purchaser to
the point of going back to a regular tank.
such things as someone showering, and someone else washes their hands,
shower poerson may get nasty chill.
plus energy savings is hard to qualify,,'
since standby losses do help heat your home,
at least if someone going to spend a lot of money they should be aware
of not only the positives but the negatives too.
I KNOW MY satisfaction level here went up dramatically here when I
went from a 35K 40 gallon tank type heater to a 75K 50 gallon tank. I
would of gone 75 gallons but it was too large to fit the space.
often people dont know that high btu tanks are even available:(
My family always take tub bath. Some times using big Jacuzzi.
When house was built I considered tankless but no one could give me
satisfactory guarantee on it. We ended up with two 50 U.S. gallon gas
heater. Did not have any hot water issues.
Please don't top post.
I have not put a thermometer on it, but I cannot put my hand
in the water with just the hot water faucet turned on. You
can be scalded by the water coming out of the faucet.
Water temperature at the lake where our water comes from is at
60 degrees right now. I don't know the actual water
temperature when it comes into the house. But it is probably
about 60-70 degrees most of the time.
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