europens homes tend to be smaller, so a tankless in a small home saves
space. high end europen homes have tanks.
tank type with forced thru the wall venting naturally doesnt lose
heated air up the flue since it only vents during operation. but feel
a tanks sides, if they are warm its helping to heat your home.
true theres losses up the flue but most of the tanks walls are inside
your home not up the flue
my whole point was letting perspective tankless owners know what thew
downsides are, after all its a expensive conversion.
You may as well give up. There are enough factors that must be taken
into account that no clear answer on which one is more efficient has
been proven in this newsgroup. The people who are focusing on
"Europeans use them" are bringing in irrelevant, nationalistic
information and further clouding the issue.
It would be nice to read an unbiased and thorough study of the matter.
I think that people in the US would be happy to move to a different
type of water heater, if it could be shown to be more efficient.
Natural gas and electricity prices are not going to get any cheaper.
I'm ready to give up my tank right now, if it gives me a return on my
Such a study must consider the ways that people use hot water and the
amounts of water needed in a specific period of time. It must also
consider initial costs and ongoing costs.
I want to know that a tankless unit would be able to keep up with the
demand for hot water for several people in a row taking showers. I
want to know that a tankless unit that size won't cost a fortune to
buy. I also want to know that the enormous, instantaneous blast
furnace that would be necessary to heat that much water won't use just
as much fuel as the more gradual gas usage of a tank water heater.
Thanks to all who contributed their positive and negative feedback, as
well as a large amount of related useful information concerning tankless
vs. tank-type domestic hot water heaters. I am satisfied enough with the
replacement of my ancient tank-type hot water heater with a new Bosch
2400E (nat gas) that this post will most likely be my last. I filtered
this newsgroup for my own posts, and discovered that I had written no
fewer than 30 posts -- and some of them fairly lengthy. So, I have
invested some time into this discussion thread, as well as others of you
who have taken the time to respond. For that, I say thank you. I may
monitor this thread tonight just to see if something turns up that I
just can't live without... but other than that, I'm signing off until
the Next Home Project.
Prior to having carefully conducted my own cost justification analysis
on replacing an end-of-life tank-type hot water heater with a new
tankless instantaneous type; then shopping for, choosing, and finally
installing a Bosch 2400E heater myself, I had never participated in the
alt.home.repair newsgroup. FYI, I subscribe to many newsgroups -- some
on an ongoing basis, some on a "let's see what that group is like"
basis, and some on an "I need some specific information on a specific
subject or topic". The latter is why I have participated in
alt.home.repair for the last couple of weeks. I have read much, learned
much, and considered much. There are a lot of experienced opinions
expressed here in this group. I hope that the tankless vs. tanker water
heater discussions will continue unabated. Conserving one's finite bank
account, as well as conserving planet earth's finite natural resources
are important, and newsgroups such as this one are a great forum for
discussing and debating just how to accomplish such conservations.
I do have one closing remark, before I go. Bernardo, you said that
> I'm ready to give up my tank right now, if it gives me a return on my
I would like to leave you and others who may read this with what I
consider to be important and relevant information. Sometimes, making a
decision is 100% about saving money, even if it comes down to saving a
single penny over several years or decades. After all, fortunes have
been gained and lost over a few pennies per share in the stock market.
However, sometimes there are other reasons to make a decision. For
example, making a decision to recycle aluminum cans rather than tossing
them in the garbage, even if it means having to carry the cans to
someplace other than your kitchen trash can. Or, if you own a
dishwasher, forgoing the dry cycle to let the dishes dry naturally with
the door cracked open (saves $$ and energy). Or, in the case of one of
the recurring topics of this newsgroup, replacing a tank-type water
heater (better if it is already worn out) with a tankless model -- even
though the initial tankless cost is higher than the tanker replacement
cost, knowing that monetary investment and energy payback is in the long
term. Granted, tankless heaters might not be the appropriate choice in
every situation, but when they are, one should give due consideration to
installing one IMHO.
To any newcomers reading this post, please take a few moments to review
the many related posts in this thread concerning the storage tank versus
the tankless, or "instantaneous" water heater. The original thread name
is "rinnai vs rheem tankless", which I changed to "Re: changed to: tank
vs. tankless water heater" after it became apparent that the discussion
was pretty much focused on just that.
Long life to the tank-type vs. tankless-type hot water heater debate!
Here you go. Some of these are fairly standard comparisons,
but the last one is very detailed and should give you far more
information than you ever wanted to know.
On Dec 29 2007, 8:33 pm, maxodyne rolled out of bed, bumped his head
and then slobbered the following:
You moron, you are comparing the efficiencies to a NEW tankless vs.
your "ancient" tank. Why not compare it to a new foam insulated tank.
And your use of "ancient" is too much along the Madison Ave. mantra
for the tankless hype. Methinks you have an interest maybe.
I have five tankless units installed at my home, office and rental
units, and I see them at home inspections here in Chicago. They work
well, but there ARE some f potential installation issues, I've put up
a web page about my experience with tankless units here:
Paragon Property Services Inc / Home Inspections, Chicago IL
I personally think this is great! I think that any practical attempts at
recovering otherwise wasted energy are generally a good idea. I also
realize that with some recovery schemes, a mathematical point of
diminishing returns may be a reality. It occurs to me that with
"Power-Pipe", that point of diminishing return may materialize sooner in
a small-scale application than with a larger scale application, such as
a factory, school, large office building, etc. due to installation
costs. Higher volumes of warm-to-hot drain water into a Power-Pipe
system would yield greater rates of energy recovery out. So Power-Pipe
would do well to market their product among large industrial/commercial
customers, I would think.
Wikipedia has some information on heat recovery:
all recovery ideas are wonderful, unfortunately many cost too much,
add to much complexity, or gain so little back its not worth it.
homes could be built in a thermos bottle, but its unlikely anyone
would want to pay the upfront cost, and then ventilation comes along
and ruins it anyway
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