entering car without a key, stealing the signal

[micky]

On NextDoor, someone claims a car can be unlocked by stealing the signal!

I can't tell if he's talking about the fob that unlocks the door with a button, or one that just being near the door unlocks the door.

Another claims this can defeated by putting the keys in a faraday cage, as if the fob was transmitting all the time. Or theyre referring to the fob that doesn't require a key (what is that called?) Isn't the range of that only a few feet? Even with the smallest yard, people inside have their fob farther from their car than that, but someone else claims they use an amplifier. Well that's back to the battery powered fob that does nothing unless you push the button.

Another says that if you used the door lock switch on the door to lock the car, this can't happen, but if you use the fob to lock the door it can. I can see a possible difference in those two methods, but is it actual/true? I always lock my car with the door switch just because it's easier and you can do it befoe the door is shut, but I do often then use the fob to turn off the headlights without its waiting 30 seconds.

I don't know if someone who doesn't live in the area and is also signed up can read a nextdoor thread. Anyone know?

I would post the url but Nextdoor said there was one new post and clicking on that made the thread disappear, so I search on stealing the signal and the last hit was on the word "the"!!! It was shown in bold and the other words didn't appear.

Also someoene says: I can't tell from posts here how the thieves are getting into the cars that are parked on the streets. However if you have one of the keyless entry systems you are vulnerable to what is called a "relay" attack. There are a couple of variants but the car is fooled into thinking there is either your legit key nearby when it isn't or your key actually is nearby and the thief intercepts the signal. In other words your car can be theoretically unlocked with your keys stored in your house a modest distance away or when you're walking away from your car in a parking lot.

I'm not sure how often each type of breach is occurring. Just because it CAN happen doesn't mean there's an epidemic. However, if I had keyless entry and was parking my car on the street I would have my keys stored in an RF bag or box; they're simple to make.

-- this doesn't make sense to me.

[Dean Hoffman]

You might have better luck asking on sci.electronics.design

[trader_4]

IDK how this works, but since it's called a "relay attack", I would guess that it works by the thief having a device that works to relay the signal from the key fob in your pocket or house to the car and back, so that the car thinks you're standing there. Some cars do that now don't they? Unlock when you're real close, you don't have to actually do anything? If it's going on, must not be widespread, this is first I've heard of it in a long time. I do recall something like that going on a couple decades ago, even then it wasn't common.

[hubops]

They actually have a majority of on-topic posts there ! Imagine that ! ... although a couple threads are about covid and Afghanistan :-( John T.

[gfretwell]

The fobs on new cars do poll all the time. You can get into my FILs Cadillac or either of the Fords I bought for the grandkids with the fob in your pocket, not touching anything on it. Then you push the button on the dash and drive away. If someone can clone that, they can take your car. The companies do try to hide that technology but any dealer and select locksmiths have that capability. It is expensive tho. I paid $350 for a Fob for one of the Fords at the dealer (parts and programming)

[gfretwell]

It seems to be about 5-6 feet, based on when the horn blows when you walk away from a running car. (Ford and Caddy).

[Idlehands]

We have had a rash of break-ins and thefts from locked vehicles in my neighborhood, all the vehicles were newer cars with keyless start.

One person had doorbell video of it going on. We now have a nice leather wrapped Faraday cage at the front door that my wife's keys are stored in when she is home.

Explains the process quite well.

[Ralph Mowery]

That is the way it is on my Toyotos. Push a button the on the door handle locks the car with the FOB in your pocket. Walk up to the car and grab the handle in a normal grip and the car unlocks. There is a button on the trunk that will open it.

The companies are robbing people with the fobs. Almost no money to make one and program it. Then a few hundred to get one made. A locksmith friend has the equipment to do the fobs but even his price is about $

75 for the fob. Then he has to buy the software for the fobs.

My Toyota has a key of sorts to unlock the door if the battery is dead in the fob that is stored in the fob. Then you can hold the fob next to the push to start button and start the car when you push the button. Some cars have this feature hidden in the consloe or glove compartment.

[Retirednoguilt]

That's why my wife and I both still use anti-theft steering wheel bars. Every time and every place we park. Thieves are generally not willing to take the time to pick the locks on the bars or try to saw through them and will move to an easier target. Takes only about 5 seconds for us to unlock the bar and put it on the floor behind the passenger seat.

[micky]

Must be the second one. I'm glad now I have the first one.

Thanks.

So it sounds like these things are transmitting all the time!! Another problem seems to me to be, How long does their battery last?

[Idlehands]

In this area they are more likely to steal anything of value left in the car then steal it, anti-theft bars are good but won't keep your belongings safe when they can pop the locks.

Mind you I can't understand people who leave anything of value overnight in their cars when parked in open driveways.

[Idlehands]

No idea, we haven't owned the car for over a year yet, the car will announce you need a new battery when it's time.

[gfretwell]

It depends on how bad they want the car and what for. If they are parting it out, they will cut the wheel. That is much softer than the theft bar. I have also heard of rogue tow trucks grabbing cars but they are usually more expensive ones.

[gfretwell]

They last a long time. When the truth came out about my FIL's older Cadillac that wouldn't keep the battery charged, he admitted he lost the fob in the car. That fob was "active" 27/7 for almost a year, not just polling. I did tell him it seemed to be enabled when I could start the car without a fob but he didn't say anything. I went as far as to put the fob he had in the microwave to make sure the car couldn't see it. They are bigger batteries than the normal CR 2032 tho. It is more like the size of a 50 cent piece and thicker .

[Ralph Mowery]

My Toyota manual says from one to two years. I change the batteries in my 'key' every year when I get it inspected. Makes it easy to keep up with that way.

[Scott Dorsey]

They are conflating two different attacks. Both are very effective.

Cars are easy to steal. You can put a fancier lock on your car, and the car thieves will just come by with a tow truck and tow it away.

You can put an expensive alarm on your car, but car alarms go off all the time, frequently enough that people ignore them.

It's easier just to get a car that isn't popular with thieves.

--scott

[Anonymous]

Only the car itself transmits its relatively weak signal continuously, looking for a nearby fob. If the fob is far enough away from the car or in a "Faraday" bag/box, it won't "hear" the car, and does not respond.

[Ed Pawlowski]

Changed mine after two years. That seems OK for me.

[hubops]

For a while a few years ago here-abouts older heavy duty pickup trucks were all-the-rage for thefts - 1. easy to steal < the keys were usually on the console >

1. no alarms 3. they are ubiquitous They were used for yanking ATM machines. I'm not sure what has changed in recent years but I don't hear as much about ATM hijacks.

John T.

[Wade Garrett]

My 2016 Toyo is has the original battery in the keyless fob. It works fine.