Pentair to sell tool division: Delta, Porter-Cable

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p snipped-for-privacy@postzzzmark.net says...

Did I say that people should be paying *no* taxes? Your analogy is complete non-sequitor.

So you do believe that the government should decide what of your income you get to keep.

How is letting me keep income *I* have earned somehow "unearned income"? I guess it's unearned by those who aren't getting a larger share of my income.

What the !@#$ are you talking about here? Let's see, those without children do subsidize those with children, or did you think people without children don't pay property taxes that pay to educate children? You really are saying that the government and others have first dibs on the money I earn to be distributed as they please, then whatever is left is mine.

No, my indignation is with your attitude that *I* owe you. And if perchance I spend my money in some way that allows a deduction, this is somehow wrong in your eyes, somebody else is somehow "subsidizing" me. Your attitude is equivalent to the idea that because I am not earning $1M per year, this means I am subsidizing my company, rather than knowing what I am going to earn and setting my spending accordingly.
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Now, dontcha think educating children - yours, mine, theirs, etc. - is to everyone's benefit? You want little rugrats with nothing to do, running aorund causing trouble, growing up unskilled and unable to contribute down the road?
Renata
On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 00:01:35 GMT, Mark & Juanita

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On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 07:45:44 -0500, Renata wrote:

Sure, but you see some of particular religious persuasions sending off 8 or 12 of the rugrats to the public schools. Kinda makes you think a factor in property tax should be a school age headcount over the average of two kids - as a "fairness" factor. After all, we're all about doing "fair shares".
-Doug
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Now do you think what goes on in public schools today is education? And what makes you think that going to school will make a difference. I see the long term state of affairs pretty bleakly.
About 25 years ago I got into software development. It was, and still is fun and exciting to be able to create new and exciting things. I looked into the future and dreamed about eventually buying a large sail boat and doing my work from there using satalite communication and networking. What I didn't take into account was that if I could do my work from a boat in the south Pacific why can't my work be done from India? Why pay me $50.00 or more per hour when there are people in India willing to do the work for $5.00 per hour? I guess I was a little short sighted. What does this have to do with anything? Well I have been unemployeed for 2 years now.
So what does my unemployement have to do with your kids getting an education? Lots. Pick a carear for your kids, any one will do. Now ask youself if that job could be outsourced. There are very few that can't. Accountant? That can be done anywhere that has access to the company books which are all kept on computers. How about payroll, admin, management, legal, tax, scheduling, and the list goes on and on.
Just about the only jobs that can't be outsourced are those that actually require a human presence. Waitress, cook, carpenter, plumber, bricklayer, police, jobs like that.
I see a future in America when a HUGE portion of the jobs that now support middle class America slowly, of not so slowly just goes away. What happens then with the rest of the jobs that provide middle class America? When all the accountants, book keepers and computer programmers can no longer find those kinds of jobs they have to start taking jobs as carpenters, framers, plumbers and waiters. What happens to those wages when there is a glut of people that want those jobs? The wages go way down.
So what happens? Middle class America just goes away. So whay does that have to do with educating your children? Lots. Don't waste your time or money. Let them play. They aren't going to be able to find jobs when they grow up so why waste their time in school.
There are two primary political parties, Republicans and Democrats. The Democrats would rather give me welfare check than a job and the Republicans would rather give someone in India a job and make the price of stock go up. Oh and what should I do? The software engineer with a job. I should retrain into something other field.
So this week I am aplying for entry level carpenter. Two years ago I made $110,000. This year I am hoping for $10.00 per hour.
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It may not have hit your area yet but around here, the carpentry jobs are being taken up by Mexicans. Illegal are preferred as they have no one to bitch to about the lack of overtime pay, ect. The Bush alien import plan should help this trend right along.

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Brian Elfert responds:

You should check out this area. People who get 9 bucks an hour are in the middle to high range, and jobs that pay much more than that are disappearing at a high rate of speed.
I listen to Bush talk about how the economy is improving, then pick up that morning's newspaper with another 110 jobs gone, down from the 350 that went last week and down from the 1100 expected to go in the following week. But, hey, there's a new Eagle store staffing downtown--where a Big Bear went broke.
Of course 15 bucks an hour isn't too high, but how much are you going to pay a person for looking at a part to see if it has obvious faults? A 401K may not be the hot set up at 8-9 bucks an hour, but that health insurance is one helluva come-on for many people. And that pay rate may not be fantastic, but in a lot of areas in this country, it's a livable wage, a good spot to start out, if not a great place to end up.
Or are we all supposed to walk into a job and get paid what everyone else, including those there 15-20-25 years, is paid?
That low end payment is highly variable across the U.S. I can see jobs in some areas that I'd love to have at $50,000 a year, but there's not a single chance in a million you could entice me to California, for instance, for double that kind of money.
Charlie Self "A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way." Mark Twain http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/myhomepage/business.html
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Brian Elfert wrote:

I agree and I agree, but it's hard to do better. I'm going through an "I hate my job" thing, and I just got done looking through the want ads. Since I don't have 40 years of administrative big business management experience, and my Linux experience is useless because I'm not a kernel hacker, that cuts out everything that pays better than $15 an hour. The only jobs that pay in the $15 range are trucking related. Everything else is in a sort of bell curve with minimum wage on the bottom, and $10 an hour on top. Most of the jobs fall into the $7 range, but the curve is a little heavier on the $5 end than the $10 end.
Not much choice at all, though there are about four dozen trucking jobs to choose from. Three dozen of them pay better than the one I have, but I'd have to live on the road. The other dozen pay less than what I already make.
I guess it's time to be grateful I have a job, and stop worrying that I'm wasting my education. Nobody's looking to hire anyone with an education in anything other than business administration, and I can't imagine anything more mind numbing.
Plus, I like it here. I have roots. I have a house. I'm not moving. In today's economy, you can't make any money unless you're willing to chase the job. Take a job in Some Yonder, and wait for them to move you to Some Other Yonder.
Forced relocation sucks. I think it has a lot to do with today's culture where nobody knows who his neighbors are, or cares.
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Silvan wrote:

I know people in the Washington DC area who have devoted their entire working lives to national and international standards development. Important but IMO jam-a-chisel-in-your-leg-to-stay-awake boring.
-- Mark
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Let's be glad they're not calling it "Business Management"... I've changed my mind about educating my kids. They are getting a trade first. THEN, if they want, they can go to Uni.

standard size chisel, I presume? <d&r>
--
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Silvan wrote:

Most jobs? Or most jobs you are qualified for? Or most jobs you'd consider? If you have some training in the right trade or profession, you can make much more. Auto mechanics, welder, nurses, respiratory therapists, state police, all make much more than $15. Your problem is that you'd have to take a year or two to learn what is needed in these careers. Not easily done when trying to support a family.

I relocated once. Glad I did, but don't ever want to do it again. I do know people that have been Nomads for their entire working career, moving every two or three years. Not for me. It does limit your choices for employment though. .
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Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

All of the above? :) I wasn't being very scientific in my investigation, so I can't give hard and fast statistics.

Let's not forget that the statistics published for what people can earn in a given field are always for people who have made it through the lean initial years too. That's a real deal breaker. I was looking seriously at law enforcement until I learned that rookie cops make the same as experienced cashiers at Wal-Mart.
It's the same in a lot of fields. It's not at all unresonable to hold back the money until people have gained enough experience to do their jobs well, but the need to weather this low income period makes any career change a difficult prospect. The only way to circumvent it is to have experience enough to step in at a higher wage from the outset, which is a pretty nasty catch 22.
This is one reason why I view income as a trap. I could do *much* better than $15 an hour in trucking already, but I don't like my trade very much, and I don't want to limit my options by raising my income too high.
What's that? "Limit your options by raising your income too high? Are you insane?" No, not at all. I have proven that the more I make, the more ways I find to obligate myself to maintaining that level of income. If changing careers and maintaining $15 an hour is difficult (virtually impossible, I'm afraid), it would be that much more difficult to maintain $20 or $30.
For that matter, when I started in *this* business, I was earning *far* less than I could afford to live on today. At the time, it was a step up. Today, it would be an enormous step down.
Changing careers is a nasty business. The only bright spot in all of this is that my current industry is a very safe place to be. Like you said to someone else, one has to find something to do which people are willing to pay for. Trucking is that. I have job security in spades, shovels and buckets.

Yes it does, but that's for each person to decide. I know nomads who earn a bazillion dollars a year, and have a fleet of Jaguars. If that's what they want, more power to them. Personally, I put more stock in being around to see all the landscape trees I planted grow to maturity.
I would also add "letting my kids stay with their friends" but that's something I can't control. We are still here, but all of their friends have been the children of nomads. I've had to watch my daughter lose her best friend three times now, and she's only in first grade. My son just doesn't *have* friends anymore, since nobody can be expected to be here six months from now. I can hardly blame him, really, but it's a sad thing to see.
Oh, and walnut is the world's most perfect wood. :)
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snipped-for-privacy@users.sourceforge.net says...

Just as a thought, have you thought about raising your income, but living on what you are currently making? By stashing away the extra for some time, you could afford to have some "down time" in the future to pay your dues in a new job. Make it something that is transparent to you, as in through payroll deduction so you don't see the extra money, only the increase in some investment account.
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On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 02:10:45 +0000, Mark & Juanita wrote:

Had a boss many years ago that told me the same thing - "I want you putting away 10% of your gross for the future - never to be tapped until you retire". I said "I can't afford it". He said, "Her's a 3 % raise, start there and add to it with every other raise and you'll be at 10% in a few years". I did and it worked. Been preaching to the Chilun the same message and they're listening and doing.
-Doug
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Mark & Juanita wrote:

Yes and no. There's more to the story than just how much I could make in my industry. I have a nice niche job and what, for the industry, is an absolutely obscene amount of home time. I can't earn more than this without giving up another 30-40 hours a week, and I'd rather be poor and have time to play in my shop and do stuff with my kids.
So, in the short term, I have no plans to raise my income. In the longer term, my useful income is going to be going up quite dramatically once some long-running obligations are dealt with. We're going to do without it just like we have been for all these years, and that should build cash reserves very quickly indeed.
From there, I don't know. We'll figure it out when we actually get there.
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On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 03:50:48 -0500, Silvan
I have been following this thread and would like your comment and suggestions how to prepare your daughter for her future career. Let say she will be attending high school this Fall. Should she targets for an engineering, Social study, IT, CPA, Medical or others career?
Thanks

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says...

My opinion only. What does she enjoy? What does she absolutely not like? That has to be considered in her decision as well as employability -- it won't do any good to have a medical degree if she does not (to the point of despise) working with biological organisms.
That said, considerations to take into account: 1. Medical -- despite all of the outsourcing going on, the people in this country are going to get sick and need care. In addition, the population (on average, due to the baby boom) is also aging, so more medical professionals will be needed for quite some time. 2. Engineering: The primary job of a good engineering school is to teach students to think and solve problems. As a person with an EE degree, I find myself doing work in numerous fields. However, one must not limit oneself to thinking that your career will be spent solely designing or doing "turn the crank" engineering work -- that, at least from what I have seen, tends to limit career opportunities and also in the extreme case, I've seen people who insisted on remaining "circuit designers" laid off because that was all they knew, their skills did not keep up with technology, and they were not competitive with new-hires. This does not imply that engineers have to move into management to continue career growth, but leadership in a technical sense is a requirement for continued career growth. 3. IT: I don't know -- you've seen the discussions regarding outsourcing of IT support. IT management is probably a potential employment source and there are people who will absolutely have to be in this country to do some support functions, but this will probably not be a growth opportunity for a while. 4. A&S degrees (Social studies, etc.) I cannot really comment one way or another on this subject -- I just don't have any good data points.

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wrote:

You should add teaching to the list. I know, many have heard the Union propaganda that teachers don't make enough, but that is (in many areas) an outdated view. In Pennsylvania (which is rated 14th in teacher salaries) the average teacher salary is $59,000 and the average work year is 187 days. In western Pennsylvania the starting salary with a BS or BA is around $34,000 with substantial raises until the 15th to 19th year (depending on the local district) when you hit an average of $78,000. This is in addition to a great retirement package, medical and other benefits as well as about the most job security you can have. Then consider the fact that in the US we bulked up on teachers in 1968 to 1976 as the bulk of the original baby boom passed through (and the public finally accepted hiring enough teachers to support all the kids). These folks have been hitting retirement and will continue to do so for a number of years causing a shortage. Combined with the 3rd wave as baby boomers kids are now starting to have kids and the demand for small class sizes (PA's average teacher to student ratio is now 1 to 16)and the demand for teachers should continue for a number of years. Unfortunately, like many such "high demand" careers, there is always the possibility that by the time someone who is currently in high school gets through college the demand may have been satiated (i.e. like all those poor kids who finished 4 years of college with an EE degree in the last year or two).
Dave Hall
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Silvan wrote:

Often true. My son graduated from school and passed his certification tests. The hospital where her worked said "that's nice." He left to go to another hospital for $8 and hour more doing the same exact job. After two years he left and started his own business in the field and now makes more in a year than i make in about eight.

Yes, unless you get lucky and can work in the new chosen field part time to hone your skills and get some experience. That's a rarity though.

Yes, you'd amazed at the number of people that are stepping down from high paid positions as the economy changes from manufacturing to service oriented.

Recenly read about the shortage of drivers. There are considerations to lower the age for a CDL and allowing 18 year olds to drive under some circumstances.

That bring up another thought. Didn't you say you hauled furniture? Any of your stops make the stuff and have good scraps? In the building our company is in there is a display house. I've found some nice cutoffs that have been made into my outfeed table, a sewing table fo rmy wife, plywood for jigs, etc. Dumpter diving pays.
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Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

I wouldn't be amazed at all. I hear about it all the time. It makes my prospects of getting out of trucking look that much more bleak too. I guess going back for my CS degree is out. :(

They already can, intrastate. There has been talk of letting them go interstate, but I haven't heard anything substantive. It's a bad idea IMHO. I once saw a dumbass kid dump the clutch and drive her Honda Civic into a video store, knocking down half of the shelves in the process. Luckily it was early in the morning, and there were few customers in the store. No one got hurt. She was maybe 17. Do we want 18-year-olds driving tractor trailers? O_o

I do, but no. Most of the stuff we haul these days, any scraps that are being made are staying in the Far East. The last American manufacturer we buy from has reached a point where they throw away a scrap after it's 13/16th" thick and 3/4" long.
Every jig in my shop is built from furniture factory plywood, but that source dried up a long time ago I'm afraid.
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Some of it is that, and that's fine. But that's only the part of the story they want to tell you. I know a number of carpenters around here that are having a very hard time even considering the amount of building they are doing (considerable). Reason for that is that contractors are hiring Mexicans. If they are illegal, that's better as far as they are concerned since they don't dare complain about low pay, lack of benifits and no overtime pay. Of course, workmanship is going to crap along with that but who cares. The contractors are making money.

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