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says...

Actually, you can only say the American Indians were the first immigrants.

There does seem to be a difference between the immigrants of days gone by and many of the current immigrants. The ones from days gone by wanted to *become* Americans and build a better life. They adapted to their new country while maintaining their family traditions within their own households. Many (please note the word "many" not "all") of the current brand of immigrants are seeking a better life, but not with the desire to assimilate into society -- look at the preponderance of languages in which California ballots are printed -- they want our society to adapt to *their* traditions. Much of the money that is made by many of the illegal immigrants is sent back to their home countries.
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snipped-for-privacy@hadenough.com says...

reburied without further examination.
I once knew 3 process control engineers from Ghana. I told them they were the only folks I'd ever met who were NOT immigrants :-).
--
Where ARE those Iraqi WMDs?

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wrote in message

This is precisely the historical pattern. My father heard Polish in school until he was 9 years old; the city of Milwaukee (and many others) had bilingual schools, German and English; the Union army in Missouri during the Civil War was 60% German--the list goes on and on. The desire to retain cultural traditions is strongest in the first generation of immigrants, but by the second and especially the third they have become almost completely assimilated within the new culture.As for sending money home, historians now agree that somewhere around 20 percent of immigrants who came over during the 1880-1910 wave remigrated, that is, returned to the home country. And many immigrants sent money home, often to allow friends and family to migrate. Last, immigrants working at low-paying jobs is precisely the historical pattern, in part because they are the jobs that are least attractive to the natives. For one example, check the use of Chinese labor in building the transcontinental railroad in 1869-72
Yes, I know--you'll say "they are loafers, do shoddy work, and don't pay their way." This is only partly true, and only of individuals. We all know more than a few Americans who fit that image. Since the 1960s the old pattern of immigrants paying more more in taxes than they received in state benefits has been broken. However, the pattern of future generations assimilating is still the norm. (Obww)
The point? Most of what you have posted is the stereotypical reaction to immigration, with the usual false generalizations.
Bob Schmall
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A lot of the immigrants coming into the USA now are doing so illegally.
The immigrants in the 1800s came here legally at least.
Brian Elfert
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writes:

True--which is one reason I'm opposed to Mr. Bush's proposal to make them citizens. Another is that it's a cheap election-year ploy that will play in the Latino community but never get passed. The illegal immigrants should meet the same standards as any who have gone before them. I was responding to the overt racism in the posting.
Bob
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Didn't Jimmy and Willie do a bunch of amnestying, too?
Of course, with Jimmy it was Canadians....

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and they were willing to learn the language. skeez
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There were illegal immigrants then too.
I visit a doctor's office with my dad which is invariably filled with Serbian old people who speak it constantly. I doubt all of them are fluent in English and may well have been here many decades. What to do? Are they bad?
Pew research studied assimilation including language acquisition. Today's hispanics learned and assimilated faster than any prior group. So much for the "willing to learn" political spin.
Personally, I wish the Italians, Polish, Germans, Irish, Mexicans, Columbians, Purple, Green and Yellow groups would assimilate more slowly. I enjoy different cultures.
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Brian Elfert wrote:

And some even got to come here against their will.
Imagine that. Not wanting to come to such a swell place as this.
UA100
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snipped-for-privacy@wi.rr.com says...

As a 4'th generation descendant of German immigrants I know that the first generation, while preserving their traditions and language at home and within the private Lutheran schools they started, also worked to learn the language of the land to which they had migrated.

A major difference between sending money to help your relative migrate and sending money to support your relatives in their country.

I never said or indicated otherwise.

You are attributing attitudes and comments to me that I never said nor implied.

Your comment above regarding the comment that immigrants are no longer net producers but are now net consumers of other peoples' money belies what you just said here.
and what

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wrote in message

" There does seem to be a difference between the immigrants of days gone by and many of the current immigrants. The ones from days gone by wanted to *become* Americans and build a better life. They adapted to their new country while maintaining their family traditions within their own households. Many (please note the word "many" not "all") of the current brand of immigrants are seeking a better life, but not with the desire to assimilate into society -- look at the preponderance of languages in which California ballots are printed -- they want our society to adapt to *their* traditions. Much of the money that is made by many of the illegal immigrants is sent back to their home countries."
This is your original post. Note that it is loaded with generalizations and contains very little evidence.

Nope. I am opposed to granting citizenship to illegal immigrants, in part because we can't afford it and in part because they should be held to the same standards as those who have gone before. My reaction to your post was based on the vague and unprovable comments you made about the motivation of today's immigrants. Pick up a book on the history of immigration (even if it's only one) and you'll find that immigrants to this country are the MOST motivated of their people. Who else would take the huge risk to seize the opportunity?
Very few of the posts on this thread look to the American businessman, who will go offshore in an instant if it means lower costs. Yes, our lifestyle expectations are too high. Yes, our leaders are doing nothing. Yes, we've become complacent. Yes, Yes, Yes. But let's not forget to add the contribution of businesses addicted to short-term profits, union-busting, extreme executive compensation, and insular thinking. Example? My son works for a major government contractor. The company will not institute a quality control program anywhere near the industry standard, because they would rather send high-priced engineers out to fix production and design problems. I ain't naming names, but my son is looking at his options.
The whole business of "Exporting America" as Lou Dobbs calls it, is far too complex for a history major like me to figure out. One part of the solution must be to become more realistic about the status that we as a nation are seeking. We aren't going to be the leaders of the world, but that's OK. A good example is Italy, which leads the world in cooking and fast cars but not much else. Are they unhappy? Hell, no--they love life and in general have reasonable expectations. Americans are too driven by their need to be number one and to have it all.
(soapbox mode off)
Bob
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The state of Minnesota is building their first light rail line in Minneapolis.
The designers originally decided to go with two languages for the ticket machines, english, and I think Spanish. The Somali community got all upset that Somali wasn't added as a third language. I think the Somalis got their way and several hundred thousand was spent to have Somali added to the machines.
They should have just put english on the machines and left it at that. Next time around, the Hmong, the Chinese, and the Indians (From India, not native americans) will all want their language on there too. Pretty soon, one ticket machine will take an entire wall to include all the instructions in different languages.
Brian Elfert
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Pretty soon,

nothing a little well written software can't take care of.
we'd all be richer for it.
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Yeah, software is free.
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snipped-for-privacy@wi.rr.com says...

You've gotta be kidding? What kind of evidence has to fall on you? California printed their last government election ballots in something on the order of 64 different languages. Doesn't seem like a whole lot of assimilation going on there, does there? Bilingual education has, instead of becoming a means of assimilating students, a means of separating them and teaching purely in Spanish rather than bringing them up to speed and getting them immersed in the English language. No generalization there. There are nearly daily stories in the news in which one ethnic community raises some issue or other about how they are being "marginalized" or "ignored". We daily have people crossing the border to have babies that become US citizens and entitle the parents to various government subsidies and largess. There is a High School in San Diego that has a significant number of illegal border crossers as students who come to school during the day and return to Mexico in the evening. The school district gets $5400 per year per student from the taxpayers of the state of California to educate citizens of another country.
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snipped-for-privacy@hadenough.com says...

--
Where ARE those Iraqi WMDs?

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Literacy used to be a requirement for citizenship - so the new citizen could understand the ballot.
You _DO_ have to be a citizen to vote, most places....

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wrote:
|
|> |> Some immigrants do great work, but some of them produce crap. My friend |> owns a house in Atlanta built mostly by immigrants. It is the shoddiest |> work you have ever seen. > |> Brian Elfert| |Your family makes crap? Unless you are an American Indian, your forefathers |were immigrants.
Actually, even if you are an American Indian your ancestors were immigrants. There is no evidence of human evolution in the new world.
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But that would mean they "discovered" America and we'd lose Columbus Day as a holiday. In the third grade Mrs. Price taught me that Chris found us so it MUST be right. Ed
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American natives are immigrants from Asia. Humans appear to have first appeared in Africa where they evolved from something else. All living organisms evolved from a primordal stew. The primordal stew may have started from comets crashing into Earth.
How far back do we want to trace to determine ancestry?
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