Square D electrical panel question

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On 3/13/2016 10:09 AM, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

You don't look a day over 60!
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On 3/13/2016 11:09 AM, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Western NY still in the 50s, daytime.
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Christopher A. Young
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On 15/03/2016 12:03, Stormin Mormon wrote:

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On Tue, 15 Mar 2016 08:03:56 -0400, Stormin Mormon

SW Florida is 85 in the day
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Someone beat you:
http://wiki.voyeurweb.com/images/thumb/5/5e/20070211-9388-4_skiing_-_Brigette.jpg/400px-20070211-9388-4_skiing_-_Brigette.jpg
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Studies show these people go home and piss on their cornflakes.
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On 3/12/2016 8:18 PM, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

You look like an electrician. I bet your ground cable is to the ground bar at home?
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Christopher A. Young
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Give it a rest.
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Stress is the conflict which occurs when your mind prevents your body from beating the living daylights out of whoever got in your way.

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WRONG. A lizard or a goldfish will get cold when the temperature drops. They will slow down considerably. We however remain around 37C inside.

Which is a stupid thing to not like. All you're getting is cold skin. So what? Why is detecting a different temperature on your skin any different to detecting that it's dark, or you're walking on softer ground? It's an input telling you about your surroundings, and nothing to be concerned about.

It's very difficult to freeze yourself. You'd need much lower temperatures than are available where you live.

Neither. I wear usually just a pair of shorts. Only add more if I'm going somewhere fancy, then I wear a tshirt.
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On 03/12/2016 01:10 PM, Mr Macaw wrote:
[snip]

Whenever I hear someone say "coat", it almost sounds like a dirty word. The result of EXCESSIVE inappropriate "put on a coat" as a child.
It doesn't get very cold here, maybe below freezing occasionally. In the fall stores are still full of coats that might be appropriate if you walk around a lot in Alaska. And I suppose parents are still insisting on kids wearing them.
I don't really know, but suspect many people lose a lot of their body-heat-generating capacity as a result of wearing coats when they shouldn't.
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I don't think they've lost it at all, they've just become accustomed to being warm all the time. I bet if you took someone who never wears one, and someone who does, and placed them naked outside on a cold winter's day, neither would get colder first. One of them might moan about it more but that's all.
If I'm out on a cold day, someone might say "aren't you cold?!" and when I say no they might touch my arm and say I am. I'm the correct temperature inside, but I've removed heat from my skin to keep it inside. People seem to equate their skin temperature with their own temperature.
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You may just not have the right combination of the jet stream, warmer water bodies and cold fronts.. I suspect that wedge of warm air that causes this ice thing in Maryland comes from the Chesapeake bay. The moisture comes in as snow west of DC, east of DC it is sleet and freezing rain. When Southern Md gets it's big snows, the weather is coming up from the south because the jet stream has driven way down, enough to make it cold in Florida and that train comes up the coast like a hurricane overwhelming warmer water in the bay. They might even get thunder with it. I did it for 38 years and I am glad to be out
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More wires and outlets all over the house, inconvenient I guess.

No, 11kV, not 11kVA. I meant the voltage going into their primaries.
We actually have much bigger ones than yours then, the one opposite me serves about 100 houses. It's very large and when it was replaced I saw them unload it off a flatbed lorry, it took up half the trailer. In case flatbed lorry means nothing over there, this big: http://www.truckexporter.co.uk/sites/default/files/styles/vehicle_fullsize/public/vehicle_images/W492PJR%20 (7).JPG?itok=2iIv3msv
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Why are more outlets "inconvenient"? In fact our code requires that you are pretty much never more than 6 feet from a receptacle, not crossing a door or other opening. 240 equipment is generally going to be fixed in place anyway.
I will say that in my travels I was impressed with the 240v tea kettle, if you really make that much tea.

OK my fault. I had understood that you folks did distribution from centralized transformers. I think we went will smaller transformers and maintaining the medium voltage for distribution because our homes tend to be farther apart. The I2R losses from 240v distribution over many hundreds of feet would be substantial. What is your typical load calculation for a home? We have a minimum service requirement of 24KVA (100 amps) and 400 amp services are not uncommon. They do build a 125% cushion in that calculation and the required feeders are only 80% of that calculation for the entire load of a dwelling. I am sure Americans still use more power than you folks across the pond but isn't that our way ;-) My usage ranges from about 2 MWH a month to around 2.5 MWH when the AC is on. That is between $200 and $300 with all the fees taxes and other charges. It is an "all electric" house tho, including pumping water. I have no other utilities.
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Because of the two different types. If I want to plug in a hoover, I use any outlet. You have to find one of the right voltage. So to make it as likely to have one, you need twice as many outlets.

Why on earth would convenience be in your code? I thought "code" was for safety?

So what are your kettles? 110 volts and 1.5kW? That would take an age to boil. Or do they have a 30 amp flex?
What about an iron? A portable fan-heater or convector heater? There are loads of appliances which need a lot of power that you may wish to move about.

We get 240V at 80-100 amps. I for some reason have a 100A master fuse, followed by a meter which has a rating of 80 amps. I've seen some old meters that say 60 amps. However the wire coming into my house is quite substantial and could probably take 300A if I told them I needed more, and they could just change the fuse and the meter.

If we're not in the middle of nowhere, heating, hot water, and cooking is done by gas (it's 3 times cheaper), so we don't use that much electricity. Showers, washing machines, and dishwashers tend to heat their own water, so those and a tumble dryer (our weather is very damp) are about the only things that wil use much.

Looking at my last bill, I used 1.5MWH between April 25th and Oct 11th, which is several times less than you. WTF are you doing with all that power?

Now you see AC isn't needed in the UK :-)

Here, 2.5MWH would cost 340 = $480, about twice what you pay. Why is America cheaper for everything? There's a phrase "rip off Britain" but nobody knows why it's the case.

Do you use heating? Since you said AC, I'm assuming a warm climate. Do you have a swimming pool?
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Because of the two different types. If I want to plug in a hoover, I use any outlet. You have to find one of the right voltage. So to make it as likely to have one, you need twice as many outlets.

Why on earth would convenience be in your code? I thought "code" was for safety?

So what are your kettles? 110 volts and 1.5kW? That would take an age to boil. Or do they have a 30 amp flex?
What about an iron? A portable fan-heater or convector heater? There are loads of appliances which need a lot of power that you may wish to move about.
We get 240V at 80-100 amps. I for some reason have a 100A master fuse, followed by a meter which has a rating of 80 amps. I've seen some old meters that say 60 amps. However the wire coming into my house is quite substantial and could probably take 300A if I told them I needed more, and they could just change the fuse and the meter.
If we're not in the middle of nowhere, heating, hot water, and cooking is done by gas (it's 3 times cheaper), so we don't use that much electricity. Showers, washing machines, and dishwashers tend to heat their own water, so those and a tumble dryer (our weather is very damp) are about the only things that wil use much.

Looking at my last bill, I used 1.5MWH between April 25th and Oct 11th, which is several times less than you. WTF are you doing with all that power?

Now you see AC isn't needed in the UK :-)

In the US most common items that plug in use 120 volts. The standard current is up to about 15 amps. Good enough for small electric heaters to warm up one room. Washing machines are usually 120 volts and do not heat the water, dryers are 240 volts and have a special plug for that, same as for the electric stoves and ovens. Irons are 120 volts, but not many use them now. Coffee pots, microwaves, and toasters and other plug in devices for the kitchen are usually 120 volts.Problem is that unless several circuits are ran to the kitchen you can only do one or two things at a time.
Just looking and my bill shows 2,039 KWH for this past month. That is for all electric and I have a well for water. Been using the portable heater for an unheated room in the basement some this winter. The summer bill is not usuall too much less due to AC. Lots less in months we do not heat or cool. The heat is by a heat pump.
The code is for safety. Most items come with about 6 feet of cord, so outlets are usually every 6 feet of wall space by the code. Several circuits for the kitchen area.
I think my main breaker is 200 amps.
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Not really. Heaters here are 3kW. You're getting 1.8kW, suitable for a hall maybe.

We used to have washing machines which COULD heat the water, but if you were doing a warm wash they'd take half or all the water from the hot water system, but some idiot has decided to make them all cold fill, citing some bollocks about it's cheaper than having your hot water tank heated up. But at the same time, we've all gone over to gas combi boilers which heat the water on demand anyway! Then I heard some crap about "the washing machine will take cold water from the pipe before it gets there from the boiler", which is wrong because if you turn on a hot tap, it's hot pretty much straight away.

I can put my dryer anywhere I want in the house. I'd find it very annoying to have to rewire the house when I want to move it.

Yes a stove has its own circuit here - 240V 30A.

Ours take long enough to heat up, yours must take all day.

Why would you stop using irons?

What amperage are your outlet circuits? We tend to have 240V 30A for the whole house on one loop. So you can run two or three big things without overloading, never have to think about it.

So to stop you having wires to trip over? That's going way too far with safety, I thought the UK was bad. The only rules we have for outlets is when installed near water, like in the bathroom. For some reason the rules are tighter than the kitchen, which has just as much water!
But then most of us do our own electrical work and just ignore all that shit anyway. My house, I'll have an outlet in the bathroom if I want. If I didn't, I'd only run an extension cord in there anyway.

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Most houses have central heating so not that much use for the portable heaters. The portable heaters cost more to operate that gas, oil, heat pump systems.

We normally feed hot and cold water to the washing machines and a valve on the machine blends them depending on hot, warm, cold. Most places have the hot water tanks of about 30 to 50 gallons and while there is a push for the on demand hot water, not all that many use it, or not in the area I live in. Usually the washer is not too far from the water heater.

Dryers are not normally moved and placed next to the washing machine which is not moved due to the water lines. Also as the dryers vent the hot air and has lint in it, they are usually vented to the outside of the house. Good for summer and bad in winter.

to iron the cloths.. Perment press came out years ago. We don't even have an ironing board. The jobs we have just require working and not dress cloths. The wife will put a towel or something over the bar in the kitchen to do some ironing if we relly need something ironed.

about it is that if a breaker does trip it only effects the outlets of one room. There are usually seperate 120 volt circuits for the refrigerator, washing machine and a few other high current items that are not often moved around.

My house has 2 outlets in the bathroom connected to a GFCI breaker in the breaker box.
The house was built around 1980 and I think the code at that time required the GFCI for bathroom and outside recepticals.
There is a large book for the National Electric Code. It is not mandantory for the different states, but most areas go by it or something very close to it. From what I understand there are lots of differentrules for wiring in the country. Some areas you have to have a licensed electrician to do any wiring. Where I live you can do you own wiwring,but are expected for it to meet the code. If you wire for someone as a job then you have to be licensed and have it inspected. I did one wiring at my house that is not to any code. Ran a # 10 wiring from the breaker box on a 30 amp breaker to an outside receptical ( actually a combination) where I can get 120 or 240 volts, but its main use is to hook up a 5 kw generator that I have incase of a power outage.
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On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 11:26:55 AM UTC-5, Ralph Mowery wrote:

+1
And if you want to use one in say a bedroom, the 120V ones seem to be adequate. I guess with 240V you could heat it up a lot faster, but for maintaining, seems 120V is fine. If you need 240V, heat multiple areas that way, you'd have a hell of a bill, here at least.
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They tend to get used for one offs, like the central heating is broken, or you want to dry out something quickly.

Space is more of a problem in UK houses, so having no hot water tank is good.

I have my dryer in the garage out of the way, and it used to be in the kitchen, in two different places as I rearranged the room. I wouldn't want to have had to move the outlet.

Permanent press? What is that? Like a big trouser press thing?

So you can't use two 15 amp appliances in one room? That would be very annoying.
I saw once a picture of double outlet for the USA, where the top one was 0v and 120v and the bottom one was 0v and -120v. So you could get 30 amps total there. I guess you could then even have a 240v outlet in the middle.

My house has fuses. I detest breakers as they trip unnecessarily.

If it's in your own house, who is going to know? It's nobody's business but yours anyway!
Here, we're not supposed to do our own gas plumbing, but I ignore that too. It's no more difficult than water plumbing.

I think they're trying to do that here. At the moment, you can get a certification to be an electrician, but it's not mandatory, and it's up to the customer if they choose someone with one or not (with are more expensive).

Ah, so it's actually an inlet? It would feed back into the house?
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On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 11:49:03 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:

They must have that in the UK too. It's where the fabric is made so that it holds it shape and doesn't need to be pressed after washing. Some is less than perfect though. So, it might require some pressing depending on how fussy you are. Things that really need to be pressed, eg dress shirts, I just take to the cleaners.

You can if some of the receptacles are on different circuits, which they may be. Very common to have them split up that way. But I can't recall when I've ever had two 15A appliances in one room, except the kitchen. Kitchens in current code have to have at least two 20A circuits.

I never saw one of those.

Decades of experience with breakers here, in multiple properties, businesses, etc. No problem with them tripping unnecessarily. Once in a blue moon one can go bad for sure, but I can't ever recall that happening to me.

Until you go to sell it, the buyer has it inspected, and the inspector finds a bunch of violations. There is also the theoretical possibility of the case of a fire, and if the fire resulted from some obvious hack job that they could show you did, without a permit, the insurance company might deny the claim. Or even worse, if the house burned down with your neighbors kid killed during a sleep-over, you could be in deep doo doo too.

As long as you do it right, all is good.

Wow, that's interesting. Here you can do it yourself on your own house. But I can't do it legally for a friend on their house. Nor can I do it if it's a rental property I own. Funny, we always think that you tend to have more regulations over there.
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