No longer worth it to plug in Electric Cars or Plug-In Hybrids in Areas wit High Electricity Costs and Low Gasoline Costs

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rbowman wrote:

LO2 is more hazardous, however the fire marshals are more familiar with that since it's common to have bulk LO2 tanks at hospitals and even large nursing homes. Hydrogen is the big unknown to them, so bring the MSDS sheet and the relevant page from the hazmat response book when you talk to them.
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On 11/5/2014 3:08 PM, Pete C. wrote:

Fuel cells can be made that use natural gas and State of Delaware was fooled into financing a fuel cell manufacturer, Bloom Energy, to make them here. Delaware has a carbon cap rule but Dem's declared that these cells did not have to abide by it. So far Bloom is way behind in getting anything going yet we've been paying for it with an extra $5 or so tacked on to every electric customers bill. Fact is that turbines can get more electricity out of natural gas than fuel cells not to mention that someone is suing because they have better cells than Bloom and were not given a chance to bid. Get politicians involved in mandating science and we all know what happens.
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Was it ever cost effective? I doubt it.
- . Christopher A. Young Learn about Jesus www.lds.org .
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On 11/6/2014 4:19 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Maybe in some esoteric uses like space craft. I recall, and maybe it is still true, that a pound of car costs about the same as a pound of hamburger. You don't use fillet mignon to make hamburger.
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On Thursday, November 6, 2014 4:14:47 PM UTC-5, Frank wrote:

Which is a regressive tax that hits everyone, including low income. But that doesn't seem to bother the libs that vote for it.

Remember Carter's shale oil project? They spent $1bil+ and never produced a drop of oil. And ironically now that we could be getting oil from a similar private venture in Canada, that knows what they are doing and has the oil ready to go, the same kind of loons are blocking the K pipeline.
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(PeteCresswell) wrote:

Hydrogen production isn't all that efficient and it needs to be compressed. Then there is the PR problem. We had a glassblowing operation and for quartz glass you need a hot hydrogen/oxygen flame. For industrial use, you get a flat bed trailer with a number of long tubes and they just swap out the trailers. Anyway we needed to get a permit from the local fire marshall. When you say 'hydrogen...' a lot of people complete the sentence with 'bomb'. Actually the liquid oxygen tank might have been more hazardous but oxygen sounds friendlier.
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rbowman wrote:

EVs probably have a decade to go before they are useable in very rural areas. In any discussion of EVs today I assume suburban to urban use since 15 mile range won't even get you to a rural area. In a rural area 15 miles won't even get you to a grocery store, much less back from it.
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wrote:

Another issue that bothers me is the added complexity. You have all the possible failure modes for the gas side of it, plus you've added all the failure modes possible on the electric side, plus you've added all the possible new modes simply from combining the two technologies. I doubt very much I would ever buy a hybrid, lease maybe. I want to go with either straight gasoline or straight electric. And of the two I tend to think the electric will be the best in the long run when it becomes possible to charge/swap out batteries in 10 minutes or less.
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Frank wrote:

I believe they are running them closer to 10,000 psi. I've routinely strapped 3,000 psi gas cylinders to my back (SCUBA), fire fighters use 4,500 psi ones (SCBA) and I have a number of 2215 psi cylinders in my shop that I transport in my truck periodically. It's not a big deal.
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On 11/7/2014 7:08 AM, Pete C. wrote:

Worth noting, hydrogen is not found in the wild. It's only a method of transporting energy which comes from some other source. You can't drill and find hydrogen. It's made by passing electricity through water, and that electricity comes from some where else.
Talking about clean hydrogen power is like talking about clean extension cord power. It's got to get power from some where up the cord a bit.
- . Christopher A. Young Learn about Jesus www.lds.org .
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Stormin Mormon wrote:

Actually most hydrogen is produced by steam reforming of methane. The bad news is the end products after two reactions are carbon dioxide and hydrogen. When you start with hydrocarbons, you have to do something with the carbon.
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rbowman wrote:

Mythbusters did an episode on that, and the cylinder punched through a block wall and would have gone through a second one if it had space to accelerate again.
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Stormin Mormon wrote:

We've been talking about hydrogen used as a "battery", and the fact that hydrogen is rather inefficient for that currently but does have the advantage of being able to be used in conventional IC engines, not just in fuel cells. Hydrogen is also produced from natural gas which is an entirely different thing and essentially still a "fossil" fuel.
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"(PeteCresswell)" wrote:

The damaging effects of Quantitative Easing haven't been counted as inflation. If they were then inflation would have been listed as very high the past few years. The left leaning economists on NPR have said that there is no telling what the effects of this QE will be since they are entirely unprecedented, however the much more limited QE in the Great Depression had negative effects for somewhere around 15 years afterward.
This is the same as the false unemployment rates being bragged about by the current administration. The reality is that the actual unemployment rate is much higher (I've heard 12-13%) since they are excluding all the people who gave up looking for work, and it also doesn't take into account in any way that the new jobs pay a fraction of what the jobs that were lost pay.
It's all smoke and mirrors, just like the claims that the "tiny percentage" of islamist lunatics aren't really a threat to the world. The reality is far different and that "tiny percentage" combined with the majority of muslims who are passive supporters of the islamists are a serious threat to the entire civilized world.
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Vandy Terre wrote:

If you covered all available flat surface areas on a prius or similar with PV, you could probably fit about 500W worth of panels. That would get you about 4KWh of charge in a really sunny 8 hour work day, so if the numbers above are correct there is some possibility of solar charging for your commute home in sunny weather.
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Frank wrote:

The good thing about hydrogen is that you can use it in conventional engines and it's combustion emission is water vapor. Thus you can have a "remote electric zero emissions vehicle" in that you can use "green" electricity to separate and compress the hydrogen and then use it to run a fairly conventional car.
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On 11/6/2014 6:29 PM, Pete C. wrote:

Big problem with hydrogen is cost of transporting it. Off hand, I recall, a mole of gas occupies about 22.4 liters at standard temperature and pressure. A mole of hydrogen weighs 2 grams. You can figure out what kind of pressures and containers it would take to contain even a gallon of hydrogen as if a liquid. Then, of course, there is the infrastructure problem. Hydrogen filling stations needed to fill tanks to maybe 5,000 psi. How'd you like to have a car with one of these tanks parked in your garage? ;)
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Frank wrote:

The two popular pressures are 350 bar (5000 psi) and 700 bar (10000 psi). BMW has been fooling around with liquid hydrogen, but that's about -425 degrees F. Even with an insulated tank it's going to warm up and vent.
Even straight compression is another hit on the efficiency let alone going the cryogenic route.
Most people wouldn't think about the tank. An oxygen tank in a welding rig is 2000-2500 psi when it's full, and a scuba tank is 3000 psi. I do get a little squeamish when I see people horsing oxygen cylinders around without the bonnet. Never saw it and it might be an urban legend but I've heard they make great unguided missiles if you snap the vale off.
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Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds wrote:

When gas was below $1/gal, the US Dollar was also worth quite a bit more than it is today. Between the built-in depreciation of the Dollar and the "Quantitative Easing" taxation of every Dollar in existence the value has fallen considerably.
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"(PeteCresswell)" wrote:

Yes, just for normal "inflation" which is really deflation of the currency value. Now add in the last few years of "Quantitative Easing" taxation of every dollar in existence and you find that current fuel prices are pretty well on par with what they were back then.
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