On Tue, 12 May 2009 02:47:25 -0700 (PDT), Charlie Self
You may actually know a lot more people who carry, but don't advertise
the fact. I carried concealed for almost 10 years when I was working
in a place with a less than salubrious environment. In all that time
neither my boss nor my co-workers knew I was carrying. It really would
have been something only my wife and myself would have known if it
weren't for my getting a speeding ticket while carrying (Washington
state law at the time required you to disclose), after which a number
LEOs know as well, as did some of their friends and family.
Still, the point is that many people carry concealed and consider
silence about it to be part of the concealment.
My laptop knows me too well - it just announced "your battery is low!"
Amazing how many ppl fail to understand this basic concept.
I moved here to CO from CA and was shocked to discover that, based on my
sterling record, the state CANNOT refuse to issue me a ccw. I don't have
one, but talk about a change of political climate. Wow! 8|
What is the purpose of law enforcement?
The NRA has been very successful throwing crap (AKA: Fear Mongering)
on the wall; however, the masses are beginning to see thru their crap.
Less and less of it is sticking on the wall these days.
That assumes that they are there to do something... if they are fine. If
they aren't what are you going to do? It's not about being judge, jury and
executioner it's about stopping whatever behaviors led to the weapon
deployment in the first place. If mere presence doesn't command compliance
then shooting may be the only way to stop the behavior. The research
literature is full of support for this notion... and the NRA doesn't own the
tier one, peer reviewed, academic journals in which it appears.
We'll solve nothing here... and we're WAY OT! Read a couple hundred journal
articles and then make an informed opinion. Folks like Gary Kleck went in
with a bias and their intellectual integrity led them to change their
opinion. Dig up a copy of Gary Kleck's Point Blank for a good start on a
literature review--it's got lots of citations. Dig up the stuff from Art
Kellermann, et al., in the medical literature too... there is a marked
difference between the two schools that becomes clear after you read a lot
of articles. What say you?
Me... tonight I'm thinking about teaching another hand cut dovetail class as
I've received a number of requested recently... Helping lay the groundwork
to get Heller to the USSC pretty much cured me of arguing about gun
Here in L/A, the gun issue revolves around drugs and the gang wars.
Almost every night there is a report on the evening news of a drive by
shooting in broad daylight, often with heart breaking results.
Not uncommon for an innocent kid, often under the age of 10, to be
gunned down in the cross walk as a gang car drives down the street
shooting anything in sight in an attempt to capture turf.
Having a bunch of over weight, middle aged guys, toting fire arms to
challenge these gangs is simply not going to happen.
Thinking someone is going to cross your threshold after dark, armed to
the teeth, and steal your wife's jewelry, your cash and who knows what
else is again extremely remote.
Even if they do, the probability an individual will shoot first, think
later is al;so remote.
Before you actually kill another human being, you will probably pause
for just a moment, a moment's delay which can cost you your life.
These thugs don't have a problem invading your house during the day
when the house is unoccupied; however, breaking into an occupied house
after dark is a totally different matter.
The difference, if they get caught is some where around 10 years to
life, if I remember.
These people aren't very bright, but they aren't that stupid either.
Steal during the day, sleep at night.
Just some thoughts.
I used to teach college level courses inside maximum security prisons...
While many of the violent inmates were under the influence of drugs and/or
alcohol during the commission of their crime(s), some were simply deranged.
Reasoning works with neither and an armed civilian could very well have been
spared their life or physical harm if they'd been armed... the inmates
agreed with me on that! They don't want to be shot any more than "normal"
people do... which is why simply displaying a firearm often ends the
That must have been very interesting.
Certainly gives you a perspective, most of us, including me, don't
I don't have a problem with someone carrying a sidearm, IF, a big IF,
they have received proper training, which includes but is not limited
to practice range time, updated on a regular basis.
Here in California, every one in law enforcement, who carries a
sidearm, has to qualify on the range every 30 days.
I doubt most amateur gun owners could meet that standard.
(SFWIW, I got a lot of lead resource for a 20,000 lb ballast for a
sailboat I built from those range pits.)
(Today, even with the HazMat experience I had, couldn't do it. EPA has
really clamped down)
I sure most other states have similar training programs in place.
It's the "fruit cakes" that concern me, not the pros.
Few of the LEOs I know could meet that frequency standard. LEOs as a class
aren't necessarily into guns, it's just a tool of their trade. Along that
line of thinking, a criminal justice professor associate of mine refers to
rank and file LEOs as "trade unionists" and the non-union LEOs as
"politicians." A bit crass perhaps, but upon reflection it's a pretty good
As research I went through about 100 hours of armed guard training. I was
looking at the organizational issues surrounding the industry.... I
consistently out shot and scored higher on the exams than all the folks
pursuing it as a vocation. Quite frankly, I'd be afraid to hold that job if
my skill level was a low as many of them... but the shooting standards were
the same as a typical LEO was required to meet!
I do have grave concerns about denying people the means to defend themselves
and their families by "pricing them out of the market." This via expensive
mandatory training, mandatory "technology," and punitive licensing fees and
processes. The people most likely to need the defensive weapons are those
least likely to be able to afford the standards demanded by legislative
efforts. Victim disarmament is also class warfare... People like Schumer and
Kennedy have armed bodyguards but the lower income folks they represent
apparently aren't worth having alive based on the pols efforts to disarm the
You do realize that the definition of "assault rifles" is merely code
for "scary-looking guns"? The so-called assault rifles are merely cosmetic
elements applied to semi-automatic rifles. Calling them "assault rifles"
makes gullible people think that the government is banning machine guns
which have already been heavily restricted since the 1930's.
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough
Well, they did it in New York City with the Sullivan Law.
But your statement "other than assault rifles..." is way too similar to the
mayor of D.C. bragging "If you don't count the homicides, D.C. is a great
place to live."
Public officials don't have a different need. They may be at
higher risk but they're not any different than you or I.
What do you call the effort in San Francisco that the mayor
tried to push through a couple of years back? What about DC?
Chicago? NYC? The Brady Bunch in general? If you can't see it
you've got your head in the sand.
I was a corrections officer for about 3 1/2 years a while ago. During
the firearms training we received I was one of the best shots there. The
other's were ex military.
During shotgun training the instructor was moving to a new firing
station with one of the female trainees. The trainee had the shotgun at
port arms with the end of the barrel pointed right at the instructor's
head. The weapon was loaded and I think ready to fire but I am not sure.
By the way it had been over 20 years since I had last fired a rifle and
I was still one of the best in my class.
On Wed, 13 May 2009 23:20:40 -0500, "David G. Nagel"
Both the "instructor" and the trainee should have gotten a thorough
reaming from the range safety officer.
Admittedly I have first hand experience only with the USMC, but I
can't feature a 'grunt' making that kind of mistake. During my
service, the philosophy was that every Marine was a rifleman first,
and only after that was his duties defined by MOS.
The two statements quoted lead me to believe that some percentage of
the members of the other armed forces may have only a nodding
acquaintance with personal weapons.
An armed society is a polite society.
Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.
Robert A. Heinlein
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