First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going to do:
Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop. I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try to hit me up for the cost of a new meter.
In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to completing the new kitchen table.
If you are going to have an electrician come in and do the work, the major part of the cost will be labor. It takes no longer to fish a wire for a 20 amp circuit than it does an 15 amp circuit So you may as well put in two 20 amp circuits and be prepared for the new Joiner that your wife is getting you for your birthday, ;-)
I wouldn't cost much more to have a 40-60amp sub-panel in the shop area. That would make it super easy for you to run extra circuits/outlets in the shop whenever you wanted. If you ever decided to wire your saw for
220 or add a 220 dust collector, etc., you would have to run the wire all the way back to the garage.
Either way, upgrading the house to 200amp is a good call.
Larry, Mike's suggestion is the best I've seen for your situation and current course of action. Bite the bullet and run the sub-panel to the shop vs. the two circuits you propose.
When I built my shop and detached garage, we ran UF from the meter can at the house (which has a 200A panel) to the garage and installed a 100A panel there. Lights in the shop are separate circuit. Garage lights are on two separate circuits (one of which also has the door opener) and wall outlets in garage and shop are two separate circuit.
Shop and garage have a total of three 220v circuits and I still have room in the panel (and easy enough access) that I can add more if needed (but don't see that happening).
Going the subpanel route for shop and giving yourself a new "starting point" is simply a "no-brainer">
The copper and labor are the two biggest expenses. Running one piece of wire through the walls, ceiling, attic, whatever, over to the shop is going to be easier than running two. Two lengths of
12gauge romex aren't going to be be much less than one length of #6 (probably what he'll need to go to sub-panel).
Then the labor to install the sub-panel is probably another $100 bucks for an electrician who's already there. From there, he can run his own wiring in the shop to save money.
Agreed. My shop has a sub panel. Five breakers for 220 lines - 2 saws, air compressor, planer, bandsaw.
A sub panel would facilitate any upgrades you may plan/anticipate for the future, like installing a frig to reduce your trips to the kitchen for a beer. See far right (i.e., the frig, not the sub panel... a nice addition to the shop "tools") -
Upgrading to 200A won't help you one bit. You are not tripping your main breaker, so it is not being over loaded. It does no good at all to deliver more current to your house than you are drawing.
Go back to your original plan of putting a 20A breaker in the circuit as long as you have 12ga wire in that branch circuit.
Jut don't waste your money upgrading a service entrance that does not nee upgrading. Any electrician that tells you this will fix your problem is just lying to you in order to take your money.
GMTA! Unless Larry is clairvoyant, there's no telling what he may wish to include in the shop at some future date. Given that the cost of installing a sub-panel is likely within spitting distance of simply ensuring that he has an adequate electric supply to the shop for NOW he definitely should "Go big or go home!" ;)
Any changes necessary down the road will be child's play for the average handyman who can read and understand the relevant portions of NEC.
I think in his original post he said he was out of space for breakers. Sure, you can use double breakers, but I still haven't met an electrician who likes those things. :-)
I think it's a good idea for a few reasons. Start adding tools to the shop that have the potential of all running at once and you can overload a 100amp service quickly. The shop could have a table saw, dust collector, air compressor, lights, chargers, window air conditioner, mini-fridge, lights, shop-vac, all running at the same time, while in the house at the same time, you can have the whole-house AC running, a turkey in the oven on 400°, 3 pots on the stove, microwave on, washer and dryer both running, water heater heating water, someone using a hair dryer and curling iron, bunch of lights and TVs on and more. I just described a typical Saturday afternoon in many homes. All these things going at the same time is not uncommon and could easily exceed 100amp service.
Upgrading to 200amps is a good idea for most any home, for the reasons stated above and more. The average family uses a lot more electricity than they used to. One of the first things you'll see listed on a home inspection when buying/selling a home is if the electric service is only
100amp. If he ever intends on selling the house, the upgrade isn't wasted money.
What ever he does he must make sure that the installation meets the current building code for the community where the building is located.
As I found out a couple of years ago, even the installation of a simple circuit may require a building permit.
While a building permit if required is a pain in the you know where, it can save you a tremendous amount of hassle if you sell your home or if there is a insurance claim in that area where the work occurred.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Gramps' shop" Newsgroups: rec.woodworking Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2017 11:31 AM Subject: TS Circuit -- Part 2
Good call if you don't know how to do that yourself, or your local building department won't let you.
NO! NO! NO! Run a 100 amp circuit to the basement and install a 100 amp sub panel. Something capable of atleast 6 circuits. If you use Square D then you have the capability to use compact breakers and double the number of circuits if you need to later. Regardless, putting a sub panel in your basement allows you to add stuff much easier in the future.
The total cost will probably only be a few hundred dollars more, but the future flexibility will be an order of magnitude more.
You really have to assess the particular needs. For me, 200A would be waste. I don't have central AC, I don't have an electric range. I never run more than one power tool at a time. I don't think I've ever pulled more than 50A at a given time.
Am I using more electricity than ever? I have more items, but my newer refrigerators use half the power than the old ones. My flat screen TV uses about a quarter of the old one.
Typical use for a month at my house is 750 KW, peak in summer about
Agreed. I have been using a 150 amp service since 1981, I have never tripped the main breaker and that house was all electric.
On occasion I tripped the breaker on a 15 amp circuit in my old shop but that was with a 3 hp router running for 2 hours straight, a fan, a DC and lighting. The electric dryer and either the TS, Planer, or BS ran on the same 240 volt circuit at the same time with no problem.
Today our newer home has a 150 amp service box and I had a dedicated 240 volt and a dedicated 120 volt 20 amp added before the house was built.
I have 3 machines that run on 240 volt but never at the same time. The new house has gas so my demand is even lower than the previous 30 years. Furnace and water heater and range now run on gas.
For me I have plenty, someone else may need more one day.
It's very unlikely that the power company will charge you anything to upgrade to 200A. I'm guessing that $1200 is well short of what it'll cost, though. If you don't need the 200A service for other things, a sub-panel would be the way to go. A sub-panel in the basement would be ideal.
#8 is good for 40A, IIRC. That's enough for any one man shop. It's a
*lot* easier to work with. #6 is a right PITA. It will be more costly to run either than a couple of 12s. Actually, he could get away with one 12-3, for two circuits.
BTW, #6-3 w/Ground Romex is 6x the cost, per foot, as 12-2 w/ground.
The size of the sub depends on the service entrance. If he only has a
100A entrance, a 100A sub is going to be a problem. Also, if he's going to the bother to put in a sub, use one with at least 20 circuits. The difference in cost is pocket change. I wouldn't put in more than a 40A or 60A sub, tops. There's nothing a homeowner is likely to use that will take that much. The capapbility of lots of circuits is important, though.
+1 (I think he's low)
I haven't trippen a main on any of my houses. I don't believe I've heard of anyone who has. I have two 150A panels, each with 40 breaker position, in an unfinished basement. No problems with power in this house. ;-)
I would have run a sub. My last house had a 200A main but it was full, so I added a sub right next to it, moved to circuits from the house over to the sub, then used those spaces for a breaker to the sub (right next to the main).
That wasn't really the pertinent point I was trying to make.
Ask the electrician who quoted that to me when we were spec'ing out a
200amp breaker box change over. He said installing the other panel wouldn't be more than another hour and a half labor on top of everything else he was doing. He charges $60/hr.
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