TS Circuit -- Part 2

First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going to do:
Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop. I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try to hit me up for the cost of a new meter.
In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to completing the new kitchen table.
Larry
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On Wednesday, January 4, 2017 at 1:31:52 PM UTC-5, Gramps' shop wrote:

Sounds like a great plan. Lights on a non-power tool circuit, I assume?
Now finish up that table so you'll have a nice place to sit while you write out those checks. ;-)
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On 1/4/2017 1:31 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:

If you are going to have an electrician come in and do the work, the major part of the cost will be labor. It takes no longer to fish a wire for a 20 amp circuit than it does an 15 amp circuit So you may as well put in two 20 amp circuits and be prepared for the new Joiner that your wife is getting you for your birthday, ;-)
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On 1/4/17 12:31 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:

I wouldn't cost much more to have a 40-60amp sub-panel in the shop area. That would make it super easy for you to run extra circuits/outlets in the shop whenever you wanted. If you ever decided to wire your saw for 220 or add a 220 dust collector, etc., you would have to run the wire all the way back to the garage.
Either way, upgrading the house to 200amp is a good call.
--

-MIKE-

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On 1/4/2017 1:03 PM, -MIKE- wrote:

Larry, Mike's suggestion is the best I've seen for your situation and current course of action. Bite the bullet and run the sub-panel to the shop vs. the two circuits you propose.
When I built my shop and detached garage, we ran UF from the meter can at the house (which has a 200A panel) to the garage and installed a 100A panel there. Lights in the shop are separate circuit. Garage lights are on two separate circuits (one of which also has the door opener) and wall outlets in garage and shop are two separate circuit.
Shop and garage have a total of three 220v circuits and I still have room in the panel (and easy enough access) that I can add more if needed (but don't see that happening).
Going the subpanel route for shop and giving yourself a new "starting point" is simply a "no-brainer">
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On 1/4/17 3:19 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:

The copper and labor are the two biggest expenses. Running one piece of wire through the walls, ceiling, attic, whatever, over to the shop is going to be easier than running two. Two lengths of 12gauge romex aren't going to be be much less than one length of #6 (probably what he'll need to go to sub-panel).
Then the labor to install the sub-panel is probably another $100 bucks for an electrician who's already there. From there, he can run his own wiring in the shop to save money.
--

-MIKE-

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On 1/4/2017 3:49 PM, -MIKE- wrote:

[snip]

GMTA! Unless Larry is clairvoyant, there's no telling what he may wish to include in the shop at some future date. Given that the cost of installing a sub-panel is likely within spitting distance of simply ensuring that he has an adequate electric supply to the shop for NOW he definitely should "Go big or go home!" ;)
Any changes necessary down the road will be child's play for the average handyman who can read and understand the relevant portions of NEC.
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On 1/4/2017 4:49 PM, -MIKE- wrote:

What ever he does he must make sure that the installation meets the current building code for the community where the building is located.
As I found out a couple of years ago, even the installation of a simple circuit may require a building permit.
While a building permit if required is a pain in the you know where, it can save you a tremendous amount of hassle if you sell your home or if there is a insurance claim in that area where the work occurred.
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wrote:

#8 is good for 40A, IIRC. That's enough for any one man shop. It's a *lot* easier to work with. #6 is a right PITA. It will be more costly to run either than a couple of 12s. Actually, he could get away with one 12-3, for two circuits.
BTW, #6-3 w/Ground Romex is 6x the cost, per foot, as 12-2 w/ground.

I think you're way low on your estimates.
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On 1/4/17 8:33 PM, snipped-for-privacy@notreal.com wrote:

That wasn't really the pertinent point I was trying to make.

Ask the electrician who quoted that to me when we were spec'ing out a 200amp breaker box change over. He said installing the other panel wouldn't be more than another hour and a half labor on top of everything else he was doing. He charges $60/hr.
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-MIKE-

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wrote:

The labor cost for one #6 will be much higher, too. That stuff is a PITA to work with.

Just moving the breakers will take a lot more than a couple of hours. It's more like an 8-12 hour job. Then there's the dicking around with the power company and inspectors, and all that rot. It's not a simple task. I've seen quotes well above $1000 for just a panel swap.
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On 1/4/17 9:43 PM, snipped-for-privacy@notreal.com wrote:

There are no breakers to move when installing a new sub-panel. But you know what, I'll tell my electrician he has it all wrong and he should call you.
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-MIKE-

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On Thursday, January 5, 2017 at 11:57:33 AM UTC-6, -MIKE- wrote:

??? To install a sub panel you have to "move" a new/additional 220 amp bre aker into the main panel. New breaker. You may have to use some of those double up breakers to make space for the new 220 breaker feeding the sub pa nel. So you would be moving those breakers.
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On 1/5/17 5:34 PM, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

I think there's some misunderstanding of what we're talking about.
I suggested the OP put a sub-panel out in his garage. This can come off the main feed into the house. I'm not sure what a 220amp breaker is that you mentioned.
But it really doesn't matter anyway, because it's semantics since every situation is different. The labor/price I quoted was from a real electrician doing a real job, similar to the one I suggested to the OP. I wasn't submitting a bid or giving him an exact quote for the job. I was simply giving advice and a real world example to help him decide. As usual in here, everybody has to jump in and bitch about every little aspect of everything everyone says.
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-MIKE-

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On Thursday, January 5, 2017 at 7:05:40 PM UTC-6, -MIKE- wrote:

Maybe some misunderstanding. How about a 60 amp 220 volt breaker in the main panel to feed the sub panel.

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wrote:

I think he means 220V breaker. If the main panel is full, then space has to be made for the breaker feeding the sub. At least that's how I read it.

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On 1/5/2017 8:00 PM, snipped-for-privacy@notreal.com wrote:

Maybe even he meant 240 volt.
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On Friday, January 6, 2017 at 8:16:13 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:

Not being an officially trained electrician, I've never looked into the 220 -230-240 volt or 120-115-110 volt issue. I'm pretty sure those are all ide ntical and interchangeable, but why are all the numbers used interchangeabl y? Why don't we pick one number and use it? Why does everyone talk about 120 volt outlets in their house, but the outlet says 115 volts.
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On 1/6/2017 1:59 PM, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

IIRC it was 110/220, now it is 120/240 in the USA. Why that changed I do not know unless it was to be able to save on the gauge of cables and wires. And most home electrical devices will run on slightly less than and or slightly higher than the stated voltage.
Oddly I think 440 volt is still normal
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On 1/6/2017 3:52 PM, Leon wrote:

Unless is is 480
I read the explanation once but still don't get 277 volts from 2 legs of 3 phase.
The nominal 120 was decided as the standard for north America but I'm not sure when. Voltages were 110, 115, 117 in different places some years ago.
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