Really now. Would you prefer that one of the sales reps slides his hand
into the blade? Will that satisfy you? Personally, I'm not rushing out to
buy a Sawstop but it does seem like a very good idea. Just keep waiting,
I'm sure we'll have real world data sometime soon if they're actually
selling any of these.
"A new study shows that licking the sweat off a frog
I'm sorry, but I don't see your point. Whether the sales rep uses his hand
or your hand or a hot dog or somebody's weenie is irrelevant. He's not
going to give a demo that makes his product look bad. The fact that it
looks good in a demo has little relevance to its functioning in the real
world unless the use to which it is going to be put is _exactly_ that that
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
I've been seeing a lot about this lately, some thoughts:
1. Historically, if you build something that takes away the need to think
about what you are doing, people will stop thinking. Case in point - when
airbags were first put into cars, there were people who stopped wearing
seatbelts (because the airbag will save me, right?). The last thing anyone
needs to do around a table saw (or router, etc...) is get complacent and
stop paying attention to what is going on, because they are "confident" that
the machine will save them if they do something stupid.
2. If don't feel comfortable with a device, that if it misfires, is going
to destroy my $100+ saw blade, the safety device itself, and possibly
damage the saw. All in the name of protecting me from what is,
statistically, a very very low risk. Even though the consequences of this
type of accident are catastrophic, the risk of occurrence is low to justify
the cost. Besides there are two devices already on the market which protect
against this type of accident: one comes with almost every saw made and
sits over the spinning blade to prevent your touching it, and the other
every woodworker is already equipped with it is located between your ears.
3. I've seen a number of those demonstrations. If the damn thing is so
effective and perfectly reliable how about a demo where the sales guy runs
is hand into the blade, I don't care if it prevents the saw from cutting
hotdogs. After all, I have seen demo's of body armor where the guy actually
takes a bullet, in my view a bullet to the chest is a lot more risky that
running your finger into the saw blade.
4. I mean no offense to those who will feel safer having a saw that is
equipped with one of these devices, more power to you, just don't force it
on the rest of us.
Parting shot (refer to number 1.) - "If your design something that is idiot
proof, they will build a better idiot!"
Lets put it this way. If you are on top of a tall building and you are
close to the edge, you will have a tendency to much more careful about what
you do if a railing is not there. Oddly enough the railing doesn't even
have to be strong enough to keep you from going over the edge, just the fact
that it is there is enough to cause you to be less attentive than if it was
not there are all. If you put a device on a saw that will (hopefully) stop
the blade if you touch it, you will have a tendency to do things you
normally would not do on the table saw. Perhaps not use that pushstick that
is just out of reach, or cut a piece that is way too small without the
proper support. It is part of the human condition to get "lazy" when the
percieved level of danger decreases.
I am not goin to argue that in the (unlikely) event a person does make
contact with the blade, the cost of the blade and safety device becomes
trivial, of course it does. However, when you weigh the cost vs. the risk,
I don't believe the risk in this case is great enough to justify the cost.
This is no different than other decisions made in the wood shop, there are
those who will argue you must wear a dust mask at all times in the shop,
because the risk of inhaling the dust that you will generate justifies the
need for the mask. There are others who will only wear a mask (or
respirator) only when working with certain types of wood or other products.
It is a decision each person has to make for himself (or herself).
The makers of this device have petitioned the Federal Government to make
this device mandatory on all tablesaws (I won't argue with you on specific
sizes of saws, suffice it to say that is there ultimate goal). This is
equivalent to forcing it on the general populace. I will grant you that
they probably do not post on this n.g., though I am pretty sure that they
(or someone in their organization) lurk here.
I suppose this has the same level of moral hazard as a seat belt. You
don't really need them until you need them, and that one moment of not
thinking does you in. I suppose we all have some pretty good stories about
near misses that we've had or seen along the way. Perhaps from not
thinking. Perhaps from being tired. Possibly from being distracted for a
moment. Maybe from inexperience.
And if it fires correctly will save $30,000 in hospital bills, months of
rehabilitation, and an SWMBO from selling every last tool in the shop.
I don't think it should be a mandatory item. I think it should be
readily available at a reasonable price. I don't have a problem with
someone else cutting their fingers off. I just want to save mine as well as
those of anyone who uses my shop.
I agree that it should not be mandatory. I don't have any idea how
effective it will be in the long run, but I'm willing to see as time plays
out. I don't however see any correlation between an individual not using
sawstop, and the loss of fingers. Too many people have been using table
saws for too many years, with all of their fingers still intact. It's about
more than just a gadget mounted on the saw.
I hate high places: I have a hard time standing in front of a
floor-to-ceiling window when I'm up in a tall hotel, tho I used to
paint houses for a living, including very large Victorians...
the need to eat overcame the fear of heights .....
You may be right, there is likely to be a subconscious influence
on how scared you are of the saw with the device on it. But I
wonder about how much that will weigh on someone willing
to lay out the money for this saw. I almost always wear a seat
belt when in a car and my van has airbags. I really don't think
that I drive more carelessly because I know I am safer and
I go slower as I get older. I think that people who are likely
to take more risks - as I was when I was younger - are the ones
most likely to be careless. But I don't think that they are likely
to buy this saw in the first place.
What I meant was that the image in my mind of not being
careful resulting in the loss of a sawblade and a cartridge
for $150 or so would make me be more careful, even if
I thought that the device would make me invulnerable.
I don't know if I will buy this saw. I decided to get a band saw
first and get by with it and miter and circular saws for a year or
so before buying a table saw, if ever. If I do, I'd like to consider
this one but I won't if they're still pursuing this regulation.
You're right. I'm going to start a petition to have all airbags and
seatbelts removed from cars. All guards should be removed from all
machinery. All warning signs in places of danger should be removed. People
should know when something is dangerous and act accordingly.
I propose that everyone should be required to wear full NHL approved
hockey goalie protective gear, with the addition of mattresses
strapped on in front and back.
Stiff penalties should be dealt to scofflaws! <G>
firstname.lastname@example.org (David Hall) wrote in message
The other side effect to consider is that eliminating low end saws
will not eliminate the use of saws by users who would otherwise use
those low end saws. So the weekend warrier cannot get a table saw.
What does she do? Why, uses or mis-uses a hand held circular saw.
Which is more dangerous: Ripping a 2x4 down on a low end table saw or
trying to halfway hold it on a couple of saw horses or a work-mate
while forcing a circular saw into a bind?
My biggest gripe is that the SawStop folks are trying to get a
government mandated monopoly. If they were pushing for liability
reform to make it more feasible to get vendors to adopt the technology
that would be fine.
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