# OT: The value of Ethanol

dpb wrote:

SNIP
I don't know all the facts but crude oil is a mix of many different hydrocarbons. Gas is a mix of a certain select hydrocarbons. Since larger chain hydrocarbons can be cracked into smaller chains, by repeated refining and cracking cycles it may be possible to get more gas by volumn than the volumn of crude oil started with. It depends on the densities of the various products. Of course you can't create more hydrogen or carbon than you start with.
ron
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They get about 19.2 gallons of gasoline out of a barrel of light, sweet crude (42 gallons).
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"Leon" wrote... [snip]

[snip]
gasoline.
This is a nice trick. Refining 1 gallon of crude results in *more* than 1 gallon of gas even though gasoline is only 1 of many products in the crude oil.

Who is doing the math here? Enron? Fact: 1 barrel of oil = 42 gallons. \$75/bbl / 42 = \$1.79 just for the crude oil. Add to this the yield (1 gal of oil nets less than 1 gal of gas); and the costs of transportation and refining (I don't know what these are but they're certainly greater than zero).

Completely invalid assumptions.

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Correct, I was only addressing gasoline however.

My neighbor who was the cost engineer in charge of revamping a refinery in California last year.

Yes
That is true if 1 gallon of Oil only produces 1 gallon of gasoline. The yield is much higher.

Yeah, I don't think so.

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"Leon" wrote [snip]>

Your simply repeating this statement does not make it true, nor does it seem that anyone has said anything that has altered your belief in it. How about you provide something credible and convince the rest of us that your belief is correct?
Art
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How about you do the contrary. I am convinced and that is what matters to me.
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As *you* are the one making the ridiculous claim it is up to you to provide supporting evidence. It appears that you have a mind like a steel trap... rusted shut. Art
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J. Clarke wrote:

You're right. I will send you a couple of blocks of lead, turn them into gold for me okay?
Ahhh shit.... HE PLONKED ME!
My life is worthless now...
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On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:53:57 -0800 (PST), Robatoy

Again.
--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
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Shit Rob, He plonked me not that long ago and I was agreeing with him at the time. He is one big motherplonker.
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That's been going on for years. He paints himself into a corner then plonks his way out.
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Har! That's pretty funny when you think about it.
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"J. Clarke" wrote >

Yes, they can and are.

Yes, it can and is.
Yet both cracking and reforming will still not yield more than 1 gal of gasoline from 1 gallon of crude oil. Nor will allowing for density variation change this.

it _can't_ be done.
If it violates the known laws of physics, chemistry, thermodynamics, et al then it positively, absolutely *CAN'T* be done at this time. Call me a heretic if you want, but neither politics, religion, nor the phase of the moon is going to change this either.
Art
PS Robatoy send his best regards.
"Robatoy" wrote...

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Artemus wrote:

What specific law or laws does it violate?
If you start with a gallon of crude oil and end up with a gallon of gasoline, then where does the remaining mass go?
--
--
--John
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The obvious one is E = M*C^2 . You claim to input 1 gal of crude and output 1 gal of gasoline. Since there are other factions also output (fuel oil, grease, and asphalt for example), there must be a corresponding increase in mass. As you haven't input massive amounts of energy to create this new mass it is clearly impossible.

Precisely! The remaining mass is the heavier factions and hence, there cannot be 1 gal of gasoline output. Q.E.D.
Art
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Artemus wrote:

How?
Huh? If the input is 1 gallon of crude oil and the output is 1 gallon of gasoline then how do fuel oil, grease, and asphalt, none of which were produced by the process in question, enter into the calculation?
If the output was to be one gallon of gasoline plus some unspecified quantity of other substances then that would have been stated.

What new mass? There is no new mass. You seem to be confusing volume with mass.

Well, actually if you are going to change the problem statement to allow some output other than gasoline then you can get one gallon of gasoline and use up the remaining mass on those "heavier fractions".
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--John
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You win. I concede defeat. You have beaten me at your own game.
Art (Who had a mental lapse ignored the time honored principle: "Never argue with an idiot. They bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.")
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You are wasting your time, bro'.
You take a bucket, put in a handful of sand and add water till you hit the one gallon mark. Then in John Clarke's world, you then have a gallon of water, which you can pour off, leave the sand behind and still have a gallon of water. Then, in order to win the argument, convert the sand to water while you're at it.
It's funnier 'n shit if it wasn't so pitiful.
r---> who's really tired of this, so last message on this...back to woodworking.
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But there may be a better source than corn...
See this report on switchgrass: http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080107/full/news.2008.415.html
John
On Wed, 9 Jan 2008 17:39:48 -0600, "Leon"

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