OT: Electrical plug question

a room right next to the washer/dryer, which has a 30 A dryer outlet (unuse d). Will the electrician be able to use that connection to create an outlet for the treadmill, or will he/she have to run a totally new connection for the 17A from the fusebox?

Some parts of Vermont sure are beautiful in the spring.

I spent a couple of weeks "bonding" with my daughter, making an old farmhouse she rented just a bit more livable.

Tech support - and good friend of the president of the company - and my daughter is manager - largest general insurance brokerage in the tri-cities. Also reading a LOT of statistics -

Take a look at:

and:

and:

In the world market Hurricaine Katrina alone in 2005 cost insurers in excess of 82.39BILLION dollars - the largest insured lossby a factor of almost 2.5 - with Fukishama in Japan being in second place (38.13 BILLION US$) Hurricaine Maria in 2017 is third at $32 BILLION. with Sandy, Irma and Harvey addin in excess of 30BILLION EACH in 2017. You go back to 9-11 with losses of just under 26BILLION in 2001 and Hurricaine Andrew in 1992 with losses of 27BILLION.

By just about ANY definition that indicates claim costs skyrocketing in general property insurance.

Lots of other information that I can't access any more since I retired

From insurancebusinessmag.com

A new report has found that the number of water damage claims resulting from leaks have surged in recent years, as other types of claims have declined in frequency.

The report, prepared by Verisk Analytics? ISO unit, found that one in

ISO additionally found that, in 2017, the total amount of insurance payouts for water damage was $13 billion. The average claim cost about $10,000.

Several industry leaders have confirmed that water damage is just as rampant as the data reveals.

?Wildfires, hurricanes and tornadoes catch headlines, but the reality is that the No. 1 kind of risk that the everyday consumer has is a water claim,? USAA assistant vice-president of P&C innovation Jon-Mike Kowall told Wall Street Journal.

From Canadian Underwriter.ca:

Water is the most common cause of damage and accounts for 50% of home insurance claims costs, Desjardins Group said Thursday. This is similar to other recent industry findings, with the Canadian Institute of Actuaries saying in a 2014 report that water damage is responsible for 48% of Canadian home claims, ahead of theft and fire, which made up 18% and 4% of total claims, respectively.

In Desjardins? survey ? conducted online with 3,020 respondents aged

With more frequent and severe weather incidents like heavy rain, lightning storms, hail, freezing-thawing cycles and flooding, there has been an increase in the number of water-related insurance claims across the country, Desjardins said. When asked if they feel weather severity has increased in frequency in the last 10 years, 75% of respondents believed it has, with 58% indicating they are worried about climate change impacting their personal safety or the safety of their property.

From waterdamagedefense.com;

Home Water Damage

When you consider the statistics, it becomes clear just how common and devastating a problem water damage can be. According to industry estimates, 14,000 people in the US experience a water damage emergency at home or work each day, and 98% of basements in the US will suffer from some type of water damage during their lifetime.

The costs are just a staggering as the frequency. Water damage and mold cost the insurance industry $2.5 billion dollars per year, and the average cost of a home water damage insurance claim is $6,965.

Water leaks alone leave incredible amounts of damage and immense waste in their wake. Water leaks from homes in the US can exceed 1 trillion gallons of water in a year. That's equivalent to the annual water usage of Los Angeles, Chicago, and Miami combined! These individual leaks often seem tiny, but over time they can generate enormous waste and damage to a home. For example, a continuously running toilet can waste over 200 gallons of water per day, and a 1/8 inch crack in a pipe can spill 250 gallons of water in a day.

Also, my home town is home to the head offices of 3 of the largest insurance COMPANIES in Canada including Manulife Sun Life (formerly Mutual Life) and Economical, as well as at least 4 other smaller insurance companies. Many of my friends work in the insurance industry in head office.

Returns ARE getting better over the last 2 or 3 years after an abyssmal start to the 2000 century - particularly the mid-century when virtually all the insurance companies were running net losses in their investment portfolios.

The worldwide economy and loss record also affects our insurance rates through a shortage of affordable re-insurance. The fires in Cali, Australia, Alberta, and the Amazon all put a big drain on re-insurers like Lloyds of London - as do flooding and brush fires in Portugal, flooding in the UK - flooding in Venice - it is a WORLDWIDE market and losses anywhere in the world affect underwriting costs - and economic dactors world-wide affect the investment income.

From

Despite positive investment performance of most insurers, returns tended to be lower in 2017 than in 2016, particularly for non-life insurers. Investment returns were lower in 2017 in 76% of the reporting countries for non-life insurers (28 out of 37 countries), in 48% of the reporting countries for life insurers (16 out of 33 countries) and in 60% of the reporting countries for composite insurers (12 out of 20 countries). 7 Despite the normalisation of monetary policy in the US, low interest rates still represent a challenge for insurers.

This document covers world-wide insurance operations LOTS of interesting stuff in there - particularly if you can compare it to 10, 15, 20 years back.

Winters can be very depressing. The only time the sun shines is when it's below 0F. Otherwise it's months on end of gray (November to April).

We lived in the Burlington area for almost 15 years. He's now on the other side of the state. Nice place to visit but I certainly don't want to live there. The year we left, we had 36" of snow on Valentines day and 24" on St. Patty's day. Saints my butt!

Like I said, I've seen enough snow for a lifetime. I'll go up there from June to October but forget the rest of the year.

I was really tempted but if I didn't finish anything, it would never get done. I'd have left a needed tool at home anyway. We were up there in October. We drove the Mustang instead of the pickup - no room for clothes, much less tools. ;-)

You better quote that in context:

Why Insurance Companies Don?t Like Knob and Tube Wiring

Many insurance companies won?t cover homes with Knob-and-Tube wiring on the basis of absence of a ground wire. Another issue is difficulty of access to inspect wiring buried within walls or ceilings.

Insurance providers will also be concerned that Knob-and-Tube wiring may be a safety hazard due to the addition of building insulation. For example, additional thermal insulation installed in an attic can smother the wiring and prevent access to the air it needs for cooling.

Most insurance companies say your home has to have a 100-amp service/ breaker panel. Knob-and-Tube systems run on a 60-amp service.

Other reasons insurance providers are wary about Knob-and-Tube wiring include concerns over:

General wear and tear ? because the wiring is so old.

Damage ? the ceramic knobs and tubes can crack.

Frayed wires.

Fragile insulation ? K&T insulation can become brittle and flake with time.

Dangerous modifications.

Overheating and fire risks.

Modern technology exceeding original supply design.

Upgrading Knob-and-Tube Wiring Systems

To make it easier to get insurance for a home with Knob-and-Tube wiring, you?ll probably need to have the system updated to meet today?s electrical safety codes.

This can be tricky, particularly if the original wiring wasn?t installed properly or it?s been tampered with over the years by amateurs in a misguided attempt to make it safer or more effective.

However, you may still be able to get homeowner?s insurance if your K&T system for lighting and power outlets is upgraded to meet the following conditions:

Exposed conductors must be in good condition.

Circuits must be protected by a circuit breaker or appropriate fuse.

No further outlets are added to the original system.

Not used ungrounding plugs in laundry rooms or bathrooms or outdoors for even a lower risk level.

Knob-and-Tube wiring repairs may be a good option if budget is a concern.

A better alternative for many homes, though, may be to replace the K&T system with brand-new electrics.

Better look closely at this one too - - -

The insurance industry is taking a hard stance on homes with Knob & Tube wiring.

This is a controversial subject, and it affects anyone who owns, or is considering the purchase of an older home in Northeast Ohio. Keep in mind, I'm not aware of any company cancelling existing policies because of Knob & Tube wiring at this time. However, the insurance industry has been quietly restricting underwriting guidelines to the point where it is nearly impossible to find a standard company willing to issue a new policy on a home that contains this type of wiring.

Let me be clear; I realize many electricians consider this a safe and effective means of wiring. I'm not arguing for the position insurance companies are taking. In fact, I'm sometimes frustrated by the approach. I just think it's time to share what I know, so you are informed of the challenges this issue is causing.

So what is "Knob & Tube" (K&T) wiring? This form of wiring was installed in homes from the 1880's and into the 1930's for most of the country. However, it continued to be installed for another 30 years in parts of Northeast Ohio (I've seen homes in our area with Knob & Tube that were built as late as 1963).

It consists of two wires, a black "hot wire" and another white or neutral colored wire to create a circuit. There is no ground wire.

The individual wires were run spaced apart at least 2 1/2 inches. As they passed through walls and floors, they were run through porcelain "insulating tubes". These were meant to stop arcing that might cause a fire.

The main concerns are: ?The wiring is old. The insulation is subject to drying and cracking and may not be intact, leaving bare wires. ?It's not grounded, making it more hazardous, especially in areas where it can come into contact with water such as kitchens and bathrooms. ?In the past, many older homes had loose fill insulation blown into attics and walls. This material covers the wiring and creates a potential fire hazard.

Although I have no statistics regarding fires caused specifically by Knob & Tube wiring, according to a March 2017 report on electrical fires by The National Fire Protection Association (NFPA), there was an average of over 45,000 home fires per year between 2010 and 2014 that involved some type of electrical failure as a factor contributing to ignition. Nearly half of these were caused by wiring and related equipment.

This has caused companies to view Knob & Tube wiring as an unacceptable risk. I've contacted other insurance agents in my area, and have found only a few who have markets that will consider homes with limited K&T wiring (in basements or attics) if a licensed electrician will provide a written statement attesting to its safety.

AND TAKE NOTE OF THE BIG IF!!!!!

" I've contacted other insurance agents in my area, and have found only a few who have markets that will consider homes with limited K&T wiring (in basements or attics) IF a licensed electrician will provide a written statement attesting to its safety"

Good luck getting an eklectrician to stick his kneck out on THAT!!!!!

ANd EXACTLY WHAT did "I" say??? I said "almost impossible" - didn't I???

Show me a home where all of the following apply:

- Exposed conductors must be in good condition.

- Circuits must be protected by a circuit breaker or appropriate fuse.

- No further outlets are added to the original system.

- Not used ungrounding plugs in laundry rooms or bathrooms or outdoors for even a lower risk level.

Possibly a restored historically significant home - but "restored" pretty much eliminates " No further outlets are added to the original system." and rewiring with current technology is MUCH cheaper!!!!!!!

Not to mention you would be hard pressed to get a permit to do ANY modification/restoration from the ESA - since you are using a Canadian refference.

Just converting an old knob and tube to a breaker panel is a huge undertaking - particularly if it was wired with a "Ring Topography" which WAS common - with 2 or 4 circuits operating the whole house.

Knob and Tube was "virtually never" connected to more than a 60 amp service - which was FUSED - which eliminates the chance as NO insurance company in Canada for sure - don't know about the USA - will insure a home with a 60 amp grid connected electrical service and fewer and fewer will even write a home with a fuse panel

I'll up the ante from "almost impossible" to "virtually impossible" for the purposes of this discussion.

Also note I didn't say an insurance company will niot renew a policy - but the extra cost is often enough to make it financially advantageous to rewire the house even if the home does not change hands, or insurance companies.

Not sure what would happen when an insurance company is purchased by another company - they MAY re-assess at that point and require upgrades.

I'm not going to go through all this line by line. However most of your graphs seem to reflect costs due to "catastrophe". Generally speaking a shorted out branch circuit or a busted pipe wouldn't be described as "catastrophe"--that would be hurricanes, floods, etc. I also wonder to what extend broken or rusted DWV would factor into water damage--my expectation would be that that resulted more from broken supply pipes and the like. And what percentage of electrical fires result from failure of the equipment ground?

Note that I'm not disputing your assertions--underwriting is as much art as science and algo is necessarily simplified compared to human underwriting--"knob and tube" is an easy checkbox--the inspector's opinion concerning the condition of that knob-and-tube is more difficult for an algorithm to deal with.

Not seeing DerbyDad's post so commenting here. Repairing knob and tube may not be allowed under code--many localities require that any repair be brought up to current code, which for knob and tube may mean a complete rewiring job.

ote:

in a room right next to the washer/dryer, which has a 30 A dryer outlet (un used). Will the electrician be able to use that connection to create an out let for the treadmill, or will he/she have to run a totally new connection for the 17A from the fusebox?

My main disappointment with Vermont is the limited places for night skiing.

I think only 4 areas offer night skiing and 3 of them are small "town tow" operations. A few years ago the summer gondola operator at Killington told me that there was practically no night skiing in VT due to DEC rules about bothering the wildlife. I never verified that.

That was the year my daughter moved to Rutland and got a weekend job teachi ng little kids to ski. The job came with a free season lift pass, but with no night skiing at Killington and typically working at the mountain at least one day each weekend, it didn't get a lot of use. She had a real job during the week, so she didn't often spend her only day off at the mountain. Famil ies got a discount, so I went up a few times. Free lodging 20 minutes from the mountain and 1/2 lift tickets is a sweet deal. ;-)

My dad lived in MA and I took him up to Killington to ride the Gondola the summer before he passed away. Grandpa, son and granddaughter sharing lunch at the summit lodge. Pretty cool.

Don't know about the USA, but "repairing" knob and tube wiring in Canada would NOT be allowed in most cases. Perhaps on a case by case basis you MIGHT get ESA approval - but I highly doubt it. Mabee the last of Knob and Tube wiring where boxes were actually used you MAY be allowerd to leave K&T wiring in uninsulated ceilings for overhead lighting - but definitely NOT the common K&T that used surface mount devices.

a room right next to the washer/dryer, which has a 30 A dryer outlet (unuse d). Will the electrician be able to use that connection to create an outlet for the treadmill, or will he/she have to run a totally new connection for the 17A from the fusebox?

r-home-uninsurable.aspx

I did read the entire articles. I specifically quoted the sections that disputed what you actually said, not what you claimed to have said.

I replied to, and quoted, *exactly* what you said in the post I responded to.

"He could buy but he could not insure."

Look upwards...it's there.

In the US each jurisdiction has its own code and inspectors. The town I live in may have a different electrical code that the town over.

And then there's the quality of inspection.

My parents had the knob and tube in their house in Florida replaced--the spec included "must be compliant with NEC except where NEC is in conflict with local code local code prevails".

Wiring was permitted, performed, signed off, and done. Then I took a look at it and ended up redoing half of it because it was such a Godawful wiring job--two inches of exposed conductor outside of the box, no strain reliefs, one place I found half a dozen cables going into a huge blob of electrical tape with the blob hanging in mid-air by the cables and God-knows-what in the middle (turned out to be a bunch of connections made by twisting ends together with pliers and then taping. Note that this would have been in the '80s.

If it had been my house I would have called a lawyer, but my parents didn't want to go that route.

For all practical purposes what I said is 100% true. You show me ONE instance of a house meeting the very stringent requirements required to POSSIBLY be insured with knob and tube wiring TODAY. I know of MANY that have not been insurable - one or two totally unmolested - time capsules if you like - which came as close as possible to meeting all the requirements stated above. The main disqualifier was the 60 amp service - which COULD NOT be replaced without modifying the K&T wiring - for which a permit could NOT be issued.

The only possibility would have been to install a new service (100 amp or more) and convert the existing panel to a sub-panel to power the K&T system - but they could not get a permit to connect the old panel without an extensive inspection of the K&T wiring which could NOT be made to comply with current code - what with surface mounted non-approved switches and other devices, no grounds, no junction boxes and all kinds of inaccessible connections. MUCH simpler (and cheaper) to re-wire completely.

My brother's house still has a couple ceiling lights on K&T - but with boxes. The boxes were installed when the house was originally wired (house was originally lit by "lighting gas" from the coalgas plant about a mile away.) My brother is the third owner and the house is, IIRC, about 112 years old and double brick so NO wires in the outer walls.

This may be a problem when he goes to sell the house - - - - He's been there about 35 years with the same insurance company.

Let me guess - they took the lowest bid??

I suspect they went with somebody recommended as a "good old boy".

in a room right next to the washer/dryer, which has a 30 A dryer outlet (un used). Will the electrician be able to use that connection to create an out let for the treadmill, or will he/she have to run a totally new connection for the 17A from the fusebox?

The point is that you simply can not admit to being wrong.

Your blanket statement that a cash buyer of a house with K&T could not insu re is just not true 100% of the time.

You can post a million words about known examples where it would be difficu lt if not impossible to insure, but that still doesn't eliminate the ability in every single case.

And YOU mr Derby, have to nit-pick at everything - You sure can't be wrong - you are an AMERICAN for cripes sake!!!

FOR ALL PRACTICAL PURPOSES a house with K&T wiring IS uninsurable. Mabee not in some backwater bayou where a house with electricity is a luxury even if it's wired with fencewire using old bud bottles as insulators - but then how many of those hovels are insured??? Or where if you know the cheif inspector and drink with him every night and go target shooting with yout AK every weekend with him you can get anything passed - - - -

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black - look in the mirror!!!

In the US, the insurer may conduct their own inspection. If it is an older building that is not currently insured they will likely insist on doing so, and can refuse to insure regardless of what the government inspector says.

Man, you do get worked up, don't you?

All caps, multiple punctuation marks, misspellings galore.

Wouldn't it be easier to just say. "Sorry, I misspoke"?

That has to be better for your blood pressure than your way of handling things.

True here too. Insurance company can set their own rules on what they will or will not insure, and to a certain extent what they will charge. Less so on life health and dissability or automotive insurance which are both HIGHLY regulated.

Generally there is a questionaire asking about roof age, furnace age, water heater age, plumbing age and materials, condition and age of windows, etc as well as history of modifications. Pictures are also generally required and supplied. If the insurer has any questions raised by, possibly, discrepencies between appearance and description, they may require inspection. When I changed insurers they were not happy with my fuse panel - which I intended to switch to breakers anyway,and required an ESA-Safe inspection because the house has aluminum wiring - Passed with flying colours.

As far as better way of handling things, tracing a circuit in conduit. Try a circuit tracer, you disconnect the hot lead at the breaker (or fure box) hook the tracer up go find all the devices on that circuit.