OT: Electrical plug question

[krw]

[krw]

That doesn't necessarily cover it. If the outlet you're scabbing the ground off of may be abandoned upstream of the scabbed outlet, removing the ground from the split circuit.

Fortunately, I have an unfinished basement (~2000 ft^2 of shop ;-) so running everything the right way is pretty easy. The second story is a bit problematic but there're just two bedrooms and a bath upstairs so little need for wiring changes.

[Clare Snyder]

I said a few days ago if he had to ask the question perhaps he should have an electrician do the job. Nowhere did I say HE should do the job. I just said it could be done, without a subpanel, and without replacingthe wire. I dissagree with running an external ground - which would NOT pass inspection here in Ontario Canada. - 4 wire will give him 2 circuits - 3 wire will give him one. At least that's what would pass here and what a qualified electrician would agree to here. My Dad was an electrician and he taught me a lot.

[DerbyDad03]

Assuming the OP is working within the US NEC arena, why would you disagree with a code-compliant external ground?

[DerbyDad03]

Something's not grammatically correct there, so I'm missing your point. Perhaps you could clarify.

I'm suggesting using 250-130(C)-3. The current 3-wire receptacle would be replaced with a junction box and a ground wire would be run from the new junction box back to the panel.

Any properly wired receptacles run from that junction box would thus be properly grounded. I'm not sure what you think might be "abandoned" in that situation.

I did something very similar except that I wasn't replacing a receptacle. I had an un-grounded Edison circuit running to a junction box, so I simply added a ground wire. The 2 branch circuits that come from that box were run with 14/2 w/ground Romex. I labeled the ground wire at the panel and junction box just to avoid confusion at either end.

My 1955 house was wired in a way that made upgrading fairly easy. The first floor was wired in a "up-down" manner such that almost all of the wiring goes up to a receptacle or switch then comes back down to the basement, over to the next,up-down, etc.

On the second floor they reversed the process by using down-up into the attic. Tracing all the wires was pretty easy. Adding ceiling fixtures in the bedrooms was a breeze because all of the wiring was easily accessible.

What I never understood is why they were willing to use so much wire with all of the up-down, down-up runs and then chose to save a small amount of wire by running that single Edison circuit. It would have been just as easy to run 2 cables from the panel as it was to run the single 3 wire cable. It's a fairly short run, fully exposed in the basement.

Maybe it was a teaching moment between a master electrician and his apprentice.

[Markem]

Really you said it in this thread, you may have thought it but where did you type it out?

[krw]

1 - scab the ground off another circuit 2 - at some time in the future an upstream outlet of the scabbed outlet is abandoned (along with its downstream outlets. 3 - ground on your circuit is now gone. Your tag saying what you did was never read.

No, the NEC sections you quoted allow the ground to be from another box/circuit. Abandoning that box, or one upstream loses the ground on your new box not knowing that the change affected another circuit (your new, split outlet).

See above.

But you did a home-run, with the ground next to the wire, right?

Mine isn't, unfortunately, though it's hard to imagine why I'd want to split an outlet off a circuit. I just add them when needed.

Yeah, not all of my attic is accessible (or, in fact an attic at all).

Wire (and labor) used to be cheap.

My father would have done that. He was somewhat of a nut when it came to wiring (he did all of the wiring in the house).

[DerbyDad03]

I now see why you and I aren't on the same page. Let's see if I can fix that.

Yes, some of the NEC sections that I quoted allow the ground to be from another box/circuit, but remember that I have specifically mentioned that I am applying 250-130(C)-3. (see my post from Friday, December 27, 2019 at

8:07:22 PM UTC-5)

"(3) The equipment grounding terminal bar within the enclosure where the branch circuit for the receptacle or branch circuit originates"

The "enclosure where the branch circuit... originates" in my application is the panel. If the external ground is connected to the equipment grounding terminal bar in the panel, then your abandonment issue is removed.

In fact, I don't see how C-3 has any abandonment potential at all. C-3 mentions the "equipment grounding terminal bar" which you aren't going to have in a junction box. IOW, there is no scabbing involved when C-3 is applied. I interpret C-3 to be referring to a panel only based on the use of the words "equipment grounding terminal bar".

IFF you are scabbing, yes. If you are applying C-3, I think not.

Yes, because, again, I am applying C-3, which I interpret to involve the panel. Where else do you find a "equipment grounding terminal bar"?

How about splitting *multiple* receptacles off a circuit?

When I moved in, there were fewer than a half dozen circuits. Almost the entire first floor was on one circuit and almost the entire second floor was on one. As a simple example, pulling one run of Romex up to the attic allowed me to split the second floor in half. That's just an example, I actually split it up more than that. Bedrooms, attic, bathroom, etc. Attic accessibility to almost all the wires made that fairly easy.

Further, putting the attic on it's own circuit allowed me to add receptacles for cable TV amplifiers, drop one down into the hallway for vacuuming, etc.

First floor now has separate circuits for kitchen, living room, office, garage, etc.

Yes, which explains the down-up, up-down installation, but not the single Edison circuit. Edison circuits could have been used elsewhere in the house, but for some reason they only used one short one in the basement.

[Puckdropper]

Markem wrote in news: [e-mail]:

2 120V breakers may be MORE dangerous than a 240V breaker. That dryer line will have 2 hots and both need to be shut down in the case of service or fault. You either have to handle tie the two 120V breakers or use a 240V breaker.

If you'd like to verify what I've said, look for "Multiwire branch circuit." That's the basic idea we're working with.

Just a homeowner,

Puckdropper

[Clare Snyder]

If it is accepted in his jurisdiction, OK - and if it is an external GROUND - but a lot of old drier 3 wire plugs were on 2 wire plus ground - which would mean in most cases only 2 insulated wires - requiring an external NEUTRAL which IS verbotten.

If the cable contains red, black, and white you may (in some cases) be allowed to run an external ground and use the white for the common neutral. If it has black and red or black and white with either green or bare you can not use the green or bare as the neutral - it is GROUND ONLY - and you can NOT run an external neutral wire. ( to the best of my knowlege)

[Clare Snyder]

Well I >On Monday, December 23, 2019 at 12:27:58 AM UTC-6, Clare Snyder wrote: >

Any electrician worth his salt will be able to give you at least one, and likely 2, 20 amp circuits drom that wire (after changing to a 20 amp braker)

And I guess it was a different thread where I said if he had to ask the question he shouldn't be doing it and should get an electrician.

I've said that MANY times on both the woodworking and home.repair groups.

[Markem]

Good to that you INTIMATED it, but I said get an electrian to look at it. Because from here I can not see whether it is a grounded dryer device or just a 2 hot and a neutral device.

[J. Clarke]

The current National Electrical Code (NEC) can be found online at . You have to register but access is free (note--it's not _good_ access--the free version is not searchable and doesn't seem to be indexed--but you can generally find what you need if you put enough effort into it).

Note that local codes may or may not bear any resemblance to the NEC--some localities just reference NEC, others have local addenda, and others are completely home-grown. Also if you have any doubt whether a particular method will pass inspection, talk to the inspector. It's generally easier to do it his (or her) way the first time than to have to fix it later.

NEC requires that the equipment grounding conductor be "bare, covered, or insulated" and if they are covered or insulated they "shall have a continuous outer finish that is either gree or green with one or more yellow stripes" then adds some details (250.119). 250.119(B) also allows one or more conductors in a multiconductor cable to be permanently identified as equipment grounding conductors, with the acceptable methods of marking listed. 250.130(C) gives rules for providing equipment grounding in circuits that did not have it at installation (i.e. branch circuits installed before an equipment ground was required).

The neutral wire also has have a "continuous outer finish" which can be white, gray, or striped with white or gray. All the details are in

200.6.

There is however an exception in 200.10(E)--"Conductors within multiconductor cables shall be permitted to be re-identified at their terminations at the time of installation by a distinctive white or gray marking or other effective means".

Ungrounded conductors can be marked with tape, tagging, or other approved means. There is no color code defined by NEC for ungrounded conductors.

If the existing cable has black, white, and green or bare then there should be any real issue at all--just connect the new single-phase breaker and receptacle with black hot and white neutral and you should be set. Note that strict compliance with NEC may also require a GFCI and/or AFCI depending on where the receptacle is located.

If it has black, red, and green or bare then according to the exception above it should be OK to tag the red wire as neutral--personally I'd cover the whole exposed length with white heat-shrink but I believe UL listed white electrical tape will be OK.

[DerbyDad03]

I asked a very simple question to which you provided an answer with a lot of unrelated stuff (unrelated to my question, that is).

You said: "I dissagree [sic] with running an external ground"

I asked: "...why would you disagree with a code-compliant external ground?"

You could have stopped right after "If it is accepted in his jurisdiction, OK"

Bottom line, it appears that you *don't* disagree with running an code- compliant external ground, which (your disagreement) is the only thing I asked about.

Now I'm curious as to why you said you disagree, when in fact, you do not.

[Clare Snyder]

2 separate 120 volt breakers in this case would be illegal. I believe even linkeed handles would be illegal - need to be "common trip"

I COULD be wrong on this one - but I doubt it.

[Clare Snyder]

Or more likely a 2 hot and GROUND

[Clare Snyder]

"I" dissagree - code may not. Here I can't get away with it. (unless it is strapped to the cable for the full length making it "effectively" part of the cable). If you can get to the cable the full lenth to strap on the ground you may as well pull out the deficient cable and pull in the proper 3 wire plus ground cable. It USED to be acceptable to connect the safety ground to a water pipe. That is no longer kosher. (for good reason) Also USED to be able to use EMT conduit as safety ground. Also no longer allowed.

[DerbyDad03]

You still haven't explained *why* you disagree. I didn't ask whether it was compliant in Ontario. I didn't ask what installation method might make it compliant in Ontario. I didn't ask about old code language related to water pipes.

I'm not sure why you keep answering questions that I'm not asking.

In fact, I'm not even sure that you actually disagree. Earlier you said "OK".

So which is it? Do you disagree with using a code-compliant external ground or not? If you do, tell us why. Nothing else, just *why* you disagree with using a code-compliant external ground.

[Markem]

Boy that could get the electricians in Cook County a lot of sidejobs pulling ground wires in conduit.

[Markem]

I have seen both, but then there are still houses that have knob tube that are functioning. That is just 2 wires no ground.