Craftsman Compucarver Machine

[bent]

how much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood

[bent]

yes, I guess it may be inverse in the ww field ,where not a lot isn't self-evident w/r/t features. Impossible with any 3D stuff. Not that there isn't 3D involved, but on a etch-a-sketch level. I bet one ornamental mantel "wing" in the compucarver is thousands of lines long, and probably not even know code if code is even available.

[bent]

in a metal part even an etch-a-sketch part program can be huge, and even though simple, copying the code can endless, with all the passes, without an APT, or canned cycles, or something to fill it in. How long are your programs, what initialization scheme is required (how much code involved), what machines can/do you use with code, , and how do you base the code (e.g. copied like the one before), and you use nothing but a Word Processor?

[bent]

is it a a kind of block stop optional thing, where say on a TS-type thing, you can get the fence to roll into position and hold there until, either the sheets are pushed through by hand? or mechanically, and then you run a little bit (more) of the program at the next position, repeat, through "blocks" of the program?

In metal, everything is done: lights, secutity system, shipping, receiving, transport, speed, coolant, tool change, tool wear checks, SPC quality control (intermittent check of parts), rough & finish, auto clamping fixturing and part loading, pallette change and rotate, you know.

[Morris Dovey]

bent wrote: | in a metal part even an etch-a-sketch part program can be huge, | and even though simple, copying the code can endless, with all | the passes, without an APT, or canned cycles, or something to | fill it in. How long are your programs,

Typically, fewer than a thousand lines. I do make heavy use of looping, subroutine calls, and confess to having hacked the controller code to invoke external programs to generate part program fragments that are executed on-the-fly and then discarded.

| what initialization scheme is required (how much code involved),

Not much - and I've written nearly all of the initialization code I'm using today. It's not unusual for my programs to start out by "discovering" the location (and sometimes the orientation) of the workpiece.

| what machines can/do you use with code,

I code for a ShopBot in that company's proprietary part language - which isn't a whole lot different from g-code except that it uses symbolic names for both variables and line labels - and it opens up _all_ of the machine parameters to the programmer.

I use strictly g-code for a small CNC router that I built in the shop. If you browse around at the link below, you can see both machines (and even some old ShopBot code).

| and how do you base the | code (e.g. copied like the one before), and you use nothing but a | Word Processor?

I was a programmer for a long time before I even heard of CNC. Programmers are said to be a lazy lot - we'll work awfully hard to avoid ever having to write a program more than once; and I'm probably one of the laziest...

I've hacked the ShopBot control software to allow a part program to cause the operating system to load, pass parameters to, and execute an external program, then give control back to the original part program so it can continue on. Typically these external programs examine the parameters and generate a custom part program fragment in a file - and when the original part program gets control back, it causes the just-created code to be executed (as if it were a canned cycle or subroutine call).

Taking this lazy approach has produced a library of re-usable code; which means that about the only time I need to do any significant amount of programming is when I do something that I haven't done before. It isn't a matter of modifying old code to do new jobs in the sense you describe - I re-use the exact same old code in a new context.

I do my code writing with gvim, a programming editor from the Unix world. I've set it up to do color highlighting to make different elements of the part programs appear in different colored type. It accepts/produces only ASCII text files.

-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA

[Morris Dovey]

bent wrote: | is it a a kind of block stop optional thing, where say on a TS-type | thing, | you can get the fence to roll into position and hold there until, | either the sheets are pushed through by hand? or mechanically, and | then you run a | little bit (more) of the program at the next position, repeat, | through "blocks" of the program?

Sortof. :-)

The whole setup is whatever seems appropriate for the job. Generally, I fixture as much as I can on the table (manually) and then turn the machine loose. Fixturing is wildly variable depending on the workpiece size and material - and might be vacuum or mechanical (anything from drill press vise to cam clamps to shop-made screw clamps to double-sided carpet tape or even bolting workpieces down).

Automatic tool changers and loading devices are more expensive than I've been able to spend for.

| In metal, everything is done: lights, secutity system, shipping, | receiving, transport, speed, coolant, tool change, tool wear | checks, SPC quality | control (intermittent check of parts), rough & finish, auto clamping | fixturing and part loading, pallette change and rotate, you know.

Yuppers - I'm aware of (if not expert with) a lot of this; but most of it requires way more resources than I can bring to bear. It'll have to wait until I have a dollar to spend on the winning lottery ticket. Meanwhile I just clunk along with my Armstrong loader/unloader/tool changer...

-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA

[bent]

I may be mistaken about the need for for much more than on the fly parts in a lot of places, given the potential. $100G quickly makes sense if only to turn all day to a differnet Dia. from std. stock. It s the real big dollar industry setups, where a $mil is what that job running through there is, where they have AGVs that retrieve anything/everything up to including 30' long 3' Dia. bars off revolving computer controlled stock racks, and load steel pieces than are dozens of cubic feet on m/cs, that are impressive, and can do everything.

[Morris Dovey]

bent wrote: | I may be mistaken about the need for for much more than on the fly | parts in | a lot of places, given the potential. $100G quickly makes sense if | only to | turn all day to a differnet Dia. from std. stock. It s the real | big dollar industry setups, where a $mil is what that job running | through there is, | where they have AGVs that retrieve anything/everything up to | including 30' | long 3' Dia. bars off revolving computer controlled stock racks, | and load | steel pieces than are dozens of cubic feet on m/cs, that are | impressive, and | can do everything.

True - and one of the interesting things that has happened is that the once prohibitively expensive motion control components have steadily decreased in price, which has made the basic technology available to a great many more people.

The little Compucarver is probably a good example. I'm inclined to believe that it should have been designed to be attached to a computer; and I think that it could have been offered with an order of magnitude higher precision - and it certainly should support g-code -- but it still boggles my mind that it's available at a local dry goods store.

Some people will buy 'em - and they'll complain that the precision sucks and that the software capabilities are inadequate for serious work (and they'll be right) - but either the Compucarve folks will get their act together or else someone else will get it right. It'll probably happen within 3-5 years; and there'll be a whole new slew of jokes about the old 'Compucarp' machines.

I'm still mulling over buying one of the little HF mini-mills and replacing the hand wheels with micro-steppers. Looks like the total parts cost (including the mill) should be under 1K. Would you have guessed - ten years ago - that you could have a new CNC mill (of any size) for under a thousand? Amazing.

-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA

[charlie b]

Now if you were on a Mac . . .

I do all my diagrams, line art illustrations and other drawings with an application called SuperPaint from Aldus (bought out by Adobe). The last upgrade, the one I still use, was copyrighted 1993! Now granted I have to use "legacy mode" - I think that's what it's called, when running OS X, but I can still use it. That's four major OS updates (6-10) and it's been on a Quadra 630 - a 68040 cpu and now on a G3 - that's four cpu upgrades.

Am keeping the G# just in case the new duo Macs won't handle SuperPaint.

charlie b

[Robatoy]

I thought I recognized the artwork you posted the otherday (your shop layout) as something from a Classic mac environment. SuperPaint was a staple in my toolbox for many years. I did buy into MiniCAD in 1988. (M the 'Mini', as in MiniCAD, is actually a moniker from the 'mini' computers which were basically the size of a washer/dryer combo) After many of us complained to the company, Nemetschek (

) they ended up changing the name to Vectorworks. After the program became dongled and pricey, and they wanted just too much for upgrades, I decided to keep a G3 (Blue & White) just for MiniCAD 7. Vectorworks has all the balls of AutoCAD which is even pricier. It is a great modeller too with fabulous rendering abilities. For a fantastic freebie, look into Google's Sketch-Up. (Native OSX) For quickies, I used MacDraw for the longest time.

I ran an 840AV for years and years. I just loved that thing. It took a G3 to tear me away from it.

I still have an LCIII, which I basically use as a floppy drive (Ethernetted to my G4) because sometimes I need a font or something.

Now I am awaiting Jobs' announcement before I hit the 'Put In My Basket' button. Maybe he'll release Leopard tomorrow, that way I won't have to buy it in the spring.

May the Farce be with you.

r

[Chris Dubea]

You are the man. In the commercial they make some indication about being able to demo the software but in typical Sears practice it's nowhere to be seen on their website.

My only question is why is the software a demo? What would you do with it without the machine. Kind of dumb.

Thanks for the information,

=========================================================================== Chris

[bent]

I spent 1 yr. in university engineering, then two at a college with honors to get a licence to use AutoCAD and MasterCAM. Think they're using Pro/E at that top C now. I wasted my time, but I understood everything you said, and could definetely pick it up. I bet you're scratching your head as to what to do if you get sick! Pretty deep waters, and deep pockets needed. a few simple leasons in AutoCAD is one thing (well worth it if you can get it), but it is out of hand. If you need people you could try one of those small independant schools. I went there. They have social assistance people, and workers' comp, insurance, etc. And new to Canadas. Not many places, but everyone was already proficient w/ Pro/E

[bent]

oh ya, my point was, they were mostly out of work engineers who knew what they were doing. stuck, some, i guess. Given th ealternatives, a good option, if not the only one.

[bent]

first.

[brianlanning]

This is highly unlikely. The vast majority of windows software these days is either win32 based or dotnet based. None of that is changing between XP and vista.

This is a driver issue. Drivers are written by the manufacturer, not microsoft. In this case, there aren't any windows drivers to worry about since the software isn't controlling the device directly.

brian

[bent]

I was thinking of the Pro/E CAD stream. It was full of engineers, a lot licensed in other countries, some just out of U of T. Pro/E is huge for all things without a brand name. GM is unigraphics, SDRC is Ford, Crysler is CATIA I think. CAD/CAE/anything. There are dozens, hundreds of apps in Pro/E such as Pro Piping, Pro nc, Pro Electrical for all. Not for the faint of heart. Few would know nc where I went to learn Pro/E, but there are independant schools with just that, specific to maching/codes/CAM. The Pro/E course I took was full days for 3 months, and with no syllabus, a waste for anyone not at engineering level, or a full knowledge of Pro/Ealready - me. Prob. 5 digit price. I didn't take high school seriously until grade 11 is my deduction. I need one, no excuses. My 25 credite colllege course-honours (vs. 40 in University engineering) however was my speed, with courses in CAD or CAD/CAM, math, theory and practical, several hand written G-code credits, and G-code/ CAD/CAM applications such as creating jigs and fixtures. I have several 1-1/2" binders full of hundreds of just hand written programs ,with all supporting documentation, and tabbed into projects. Easier for open book exams. In exams we hand to create complete G-codes for parts and were allowed to use sub-routines and whatever machines. Anyways, if there is such a thing as an out of work, work for cheap, capable, trustworthy, reliable, go-getter ready to go, that knows machining/codes (in wood) fire everyone. Keep in mind though that proven in a big study involving the big engineering universtities MIT, etc.. "85% of engineers are in business" after 7 to 10 years, and those that aren't consider themselves the least succesful. I learned what that means by working in such a company. In an established company with several divisions, they put their license on the line regularly by just seeing the paperwork of shipping/receiving, suppliers, purchase orders and reading and signing off on business. They are also whio talks to the big cheese, goes to meetings, and takes all engineering technical investigations... The guys I saw weren't there, or couldn't get back there, for whatever reason. Or you could put an add in the paper and see who'll take it.

[bent]

, subprogram linking

[Morris Dovey]

| I bet you're scratching your head as to what to do if | you get sick! Pretty deep waters, and deep pockets | needed.

Strange you should put it that way. In August and September I was fighting a case of shingles (started at the back of my neck and followed the nerves over the top of my head to settle in and around my left eye - ugly!) and found myself working one-eyed in the shop. Work slowed considerably; but didn't (couldn't) stop.

With no pockets at all, if I get really sick, then I'll either get better or punch out. Either way, it becomes a non-problem - and worry doesn't make the deep waters any less deep.

Still scratching my head...

-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA

[Dave Balderstone]

"Classic", properly.

The Intel Macs won't run Classic, I'm using a program called "Sheepshaver" to run OS 9.0.4 on my Intel iMac.

[J T]

Sun, Jan 7, 2007, 4:56pm [e-mail] (bent) wndered in and mumbled: yes, I guess it may be inverse in the ww field ,where not a lot isn't self-evident w/r/t features. Impossible with any 3D stuff. Not that there isn't 3D involved, but on a etch-a-sketch level. I bet one ornamental mantel "wing" in the compucarver is thousands of lines long, and probably not even know code if code is even available.

Well, because you reerenced etch-a-sketch, it's possible you're referring to the post I made. But, it's really impossible to say for sure, because you don't bother saying to whom, and what post, you're responding to. That's just plain rude.

If by some remote chance you actually were responding to my post, you assumed my post was very deep and meaningful - and responded with techno babble.

Nest time just try face value, don't try to read a lot into it. An etch-a-sketch is a pretty neat, but not really complex, toy; fun, but pretty much worthless for anything useful, besides amusement. My comment about the compucarver meant it's basically a fancy equivalent of an etch-a-sketch - that's it.

JOAT To listen is an effort, and just to hear is no merit. A duck hears also.

- Igor Stravinsky