Electrical Questions for In-line Fan Installation Featured

What we're talking about is 'notifiable work' under Part P, ie that which needs a registered electrician signoff or a Building Control inspection.

Notifiable work covers "Any addition or alteration to an existing circuit in a special location" [1]. Special locations include "Locations containing a bath tub or shower basin" but not those with only toilets and sinks.

So here it's a bathroom, in which case you need to decide which zone (if any) it's in. See pictures here:

If you're in Zone 1 then I *think* that's notifiable even if the installation is SELV and the transformer is out of the zones. If you aren't in a zone then that's not a 'special location' and hence not notifiable.

For non notifiable works you can DIY and don't need any inspection or paperwork, but they still need to meet BS7671. That's mainly about selecting the right accessories and cable, and wiring them up in the right way.

I think here there's not much to test beyond 'does it work?'. If you are unsure about what's 'conventional' then by all means post your plans here.

BTW, BS7671, an 'unofficial' copy of which is here:

Like the Highway Code doesn't actually teach you how to drive, the OSG isn't 'electrics for dummies' but it contains necessary specific information. There's also an IET 'students' guide':

Theo

If it's an inline fan, as stated, then it is above the ceiling, so it's not even in the bathroom, never mind any of the zones.

Indeed - no electrics in a notifiable location is not notifiable IYSWIM!

If the inline fan is in the loft, then it is not in a special location. So all you are doing is adding something to an existing circuit, which is not notifiable.

Yes. And that would also be the case if it was notifiable, and you were getting a third party to certify it.

Always worth testing and keeping notes of results - even if just for future reference back to. However as a non notifiable job, you won't be submitting paperwork anywhere anyway.

The main grey area was whether removing the old fan from the special zone counts as an 'alteration', logic says not but these things aren't always logical. Nothing else is in a zone so overall I am comfortable it is not notifiable.

On 11/06/2024 23:03, Theo wrote: > For non notifiable works you can DIY and don't need any inspection or > paperwork, but they still need to meet BS7671. That's mainly about > selecting the right accessories and cable, and wiring them up in the right > way.

It's exactly what I wanted to hear but I'm wondering if either of you have any reliable resources that corroborate this, I believe the relevant organisations purposely make it vague as it's existential that the professionals continue to pay their dues. The rest of this post deals with how I came to the conclusion that no DIY electrical work can be done without some form of involvement from a registered professional.

Please pick this apart, I'm hoping I've misinterpreted it!

To aid my understanding I took out the following 3 books from the library. It's next to the college so tends to stock such items.

• Electrician's guide to the building regulations. (16th Ed, 2022, IET)
• On-Site Guide, BS 7671:2018+A2:2022 (2022, IET)
• 18th Edition IET wiring regulations, inspection, testing and certification (9th Ed, 2019, Routledge)

The electrician's guide is what I've thumbed through, the on site guide just seemed to be a load of tables and figures without much explanation so I've mostly ignored it.

What is not clear is how much of the prose is from the regs or simply IET best practice (although as they publish the BS doc probably not worthless), and whether it applies to small jobs like this or the bigger jobs (rewire, new circuit, replacement CU etc) but I noted the following passages.

The book is based on BS7671 which should be used to meet Part P.

Should have a minor works certificate

The need for verification of existing and rectifying faults

So have I misinterpreted this? I had to dig in to these books to find any of this out; if they don't want householders doing bodge jobs then it should all be freely and clearly spelled out exactly what can and can't be done and by whom. There's not a resource I can find - most is either vague, out of date or just wrong.

And it would also help us householders enforce and uphold the requirements of professionals if it was clearly laid out. I've had "professional" electrical work done for which I've got no paperwork, should they have provided it?

I presume you've looked at Section P of the Approved Documents?

I think most here would rather that work is done to a good technical standard and ignore the paperwork that councils aren't especially interested in dealing with anyway, remember there is no part P police ...

Thanks, I'd only seen the Requirements section set out. As I understand it this is what is "law" and the approved document is a suggestion of how to comply with it? The book copies a lot of the rest of it. It looks like the section relevant is:-

Inspection and testing of non-notifiable work

That seems to say what I posted above but in a far more succinct way :-D

I'm not trivialising the importance of testing and certification and I assume this requirement is what's ignored by the majority of DIYers. I will probably ignore it myself, maybe get an EICR at some later point. All I'm really doing is removing a cable from one appliance and connecting it to something else meeting the same purpose. But the risk remains if there's a fatality due to the circuit and it's clear I modified it, or should a fault develop and fire starts, then there's really no cover for me and seems the insurance wouldn't pay. So there's no "police" until the remote event something happens and I'd have to live with it.

Even in a special location, doing a like for like swap of a fan for example would not be notifiable.

However look at it this way; could you disconnect the feed to the fan outside of the bathroom - i.e. not in a special location? If yes, then the fan and remaining switch gear in the bathroom is now not even part of an electrical installation since it is not connected to the supply!

The building regs part P document (2013) makes it fairly clear what jobs are classed as notifiable.

The basic principles are that work must be done according to the rules in BS7671 - regardless of who does the work.

When part P was first introduced it only allowed for notifiable work to be be either self certified by a member of a competent person scheme, or handled via a building notice submission to the local authority - the intension being that they would then inspect and test the work. There was no provision to have a third party inspector sign off work they did not complete themselves.

This caused a number of operational difficulties, since many building control departments did not have the domain expertise to do the inspection and testing, so they needed to subcontract it - and that was expensive for them. Many just asked the installer to get an electrical inspection done and give them the result of that. They would then certify based on that. There was no route for a non scheme installer to have their own sub contractor inspect AND sign off.

The 2013 revision of part P reduced the range of jobs that were notifiable (e.g. work in kitchens was no longer included), and also allowed for third party inspection and certification without needing building control to get involved as directly.

I would argue that all electrical work can be DIYed. Notifiable work will still need to involve either a building notice, or arranging inspection and certification by a scheme member able to do it. Needless to say even in cases where paying for inspection, you can probably reduce costs by doing proper testing yourself, and documenting the results. Once the inspector is confident that you know what you are doing and your test results are good, it can reduce the amount of work they need to do.

Yup, useful book - written in plain English and also had good explanations of the test methods. It also points out where there are interactions between the various non electrical building regs with the electrical ones.

This is the book that turns BS7671 itself into a more pragmatic guide. In particular it defines many "standard" circuit designs. That means that if you use one of these, you can ignore all the detailed circuit design exercises that may be required in cases where you can't use an "off the shelf" design

e.g.

It is quite often the "go to" book for concise detail on actually implementing stuff that meets the requirements of BS7671 - it requires some context to understand - but not nearly as much as BS7671 itself.

It should apply to all jobs. Generally it spells out which are actual requirements. In most formal requirements specs (in most industries) the word "shall" implies a hard requirement. Words like "should" indicate normal or best practice but may not be requirements. In BS7671 some sections are marked as "informative" or include intros saying "this section includes recommendations" - these usually do not contact hard requirements.

It is important to realise that most of the guidance here is aimed at the professional installer. Much of it also applies to the DIY installer as well - however some parts may be less relevant.

Say you were contracted to go and add some sockets to a customer's existing circuit. You would do the work to a standard meeting BS7671. You would be probably be using a standard circuit as per the on site guide and hence by implication doing work designed to the right standards. You would test your work and document it, and then pass that information to the customer in a standardised form. You would not however notify the local authority since the work is not notifiable.

Now say you were doing that yourself in your own place. You would do the same as far as the testing. You could also write down and keep the test results, but the minor works certificate would be rather pointless - who are you going to hand it to? The cat probably won't be interested!

Generally building regs are not retrospective. When a new reg is introduced or its requirements made more stringent, any work already completed to a previous standard does not need to brought up to the new standard.

However additions to existing work would need to be done to the new standard.

With electrical work this is also true, however there are some cases where non compliant parts of the system can make it impossible to do the new work to an adequate standard - and hence by default you may have to do work on other things in order to complete the new work to an adequate standard.

A good example would be if you found that the main equipotential bonding was missing - you could not then do new stuff and it be compliant with the rules as they are now. Or to take the example of adding sockets, if the existing circuit did not have RCD protection, you would not be required to add it to the existing sockets, but you could not add new sockets without it. (which means you may need to add it to the circuit, or perhaps use sockets with built in RCD protection for the additions).

Competent in this case means just that. You should have the skills and knowledge required to do the job. It does not matter if you are paid for the work (i.e. doing it in a professional capacity)

Competence should also be interpreted in terms of the task at hand, not necessarily competence to carry out a complete catalogue of all possible tasks. So you could be competent to change a plug on a flex, and the fact that you don't have the skills or knowledge to change a consumer unit is not relevant.

Depends on what you are doing - but yes there are times having things like an insulation resistance tester is useful. However there are a fair range of jobs that you will be able to do safely and well enough with a decent multimeter.

I think you may be over thinking it and worrying more than you ought (which is not necessarily a bad thing - and often better than diving in without giving it a second thought!)

Much of the guidance you are reading is aimed at people doing this stuff professionally. Some of it will just not be relevant or of much use for a DIY installer. Also worth noting that there are no part P police who will come and raid the place looking for missing earth sleeving! In the early days or part P, solicitors doing conveyancing on house sales were quite keen on seeing electrical works certs etc - these days they are (IME) far less interested. If you answer "yes electrical work has been done" and "no I don't have any certs / there were lost / or I know nothing about it" it is unlikely that they will question it.

Remember you need to live with the work you do - and so have the most vested interest in it being safe. You will have less vested interest in having the same paperwork that a pro installer may have given you at the end of the job.

This is one of the dangers of part P really - when first implemented it resulted in a rise in the number of electrical injuries from fixed wiring. By inducing enough FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, & Doubt) it discouraged people from improving dangerous stuff at all, or led them to make improvements is less satisfactory ways. It often makes "perfect" the enemy of "good enough" in people's minds. So that socket with three multi-way adaptors plugged in stays in use rather than being replaced by a couple of extra double sockets being installed. Or the already close to overloaded circuit gets extended further, when running a new circuit back to the CU would be preferable.

Generally yes (depending on when it was done) - at least a minor works cert. However many end users will not be interested or aware they should get one, and the installer may be happy to skip it to keep time and cost down.

Another problem with many of the electrical rules is that they are laid down in an expensive set of books produced by a commercial enterprise. Fair enough to expect pros and perhaps the more keen of us to buy them, but not realistic to expect Joe public to buy a copy. It is also made harder that many cite other British Standard docs that are also hard to access or even more expensive to buy if you can't find a way of getting them otherwise. (it is not uncommon to see prices quoted of several hundred quid for some of them). (Though you may find your library has a subscription to the BS online service)

Over the years we have written quite a number of guides to electrical work that try and explain the way to do things in a more readable and pragmatic way. We have also tried to include info pulled in from the relevant BS docs as well as BS761 etc to make the article more of a "one stop shop". See here:

Some might be out of date (however you can check each article's history to see when it was last updated).

There are are (or were) quite a number of professional engineers and pro electricians who wrote, contributed or at least proof read much of the content in most of those, so in general the quality is pretty good (even if I do say so myself, having written quite a few of them!)

There are sometimes guides floating around the internet dating from that original ~2006 incarnation of Part P. As the rules have since changed it's worth being wary of them. Similarly books from this era.

I've asked my local authority building control for a quote and it was about £200 for them to get out of bed to do anything. This may well vary, but puts some kind of a lower bound on notifiable work that's not worth DIYing. (ie if it's going to cost less than £200 to pay an electrician to do the whole job, then do that)

Are there any firms who specialise in inspection and are open to DIYers? LABC and NHBC tend to be focused on volume housebuilders and probably aren't interested in DIY work. Many sparkys don't want to certify work they didn't do for liability reasons.

I'd agree in general. There are some cases where some other rules come into play - eg if you DIY your own solar panel install, you can get it signed off for Part P but if it wasn't installed by an MCS-certified installer you don't get most export tariffs.

That's the philosophy of BS7671 - it doesn't actually say very much in specifics, it's left for the practitioner to design something and show it meets the rules. 'Design' is unnecessary work for many situations, so the OSG simplifies it into 'just do X, it'll be fine', perhaps doing it more conservatively than the rules would strictly allow. Most electricians are just installing by these conventions. They can actually use the full freedom of BS7671 but that's extra work - a bit like people might buy a ready-made plan for house rather than engaging the services of an architect.

Some electricians stick rather too rigidly to the conventions than they need to. My thinking as a DIYer is that it's better to err on the side of being 'conventional' so the next electrician doesn't come along and say 'who bodged this' and maybe fail an EICR when you actually have designed it according to the letter of BS7671.

I'd argue that such conservatism also means you are less likely to make mistakes since the DIYer doesn't usually have anyone to check their design with, and there may be things they didn't consider.

Production engineering would design closer to the limits (unnecessary materials increases costs), but over-engineering it by paying more for materials in order to DIY and save pro labour costs is also rational engineering design.

I think overthinking it is more or less a good thing - it means you're paying attention and being aware of the limits of your abilities. The real problem installs are people who don't know what they don't know and just do it any old how. (usually storing up problems for later)

I hope buyers who have been through the process a few times have got the idea that conveyancers often make drama about things which are inconsequential, but first time buyers may not have learned the game yet. At the end of the day the decision they have is to buy the house or not, and most people won't walk away.

If you're buying you should just mentally put aside a few hundred pounds for regularisation work should anything be needed. Getting an EICR on your new house is perhaps a good idea so you know where you stand (perhaps pre-sale if you think there's anything that might need major works like a rewire, but most other works aren't that expensive).

Agree completely with the rest of your post, BTW!

Theo

Well. The light switch (pull cord), isolator and transformer are all in the bathroom, just not in a zone. So if I understand the overall notification requirement, then yes the fan can be disconnected from the supply and this will happen outside of the notifiable zone. I like your logic and hope I have applied it here sensibly.

I didn't mean to imply otherwise, only that I concluded there may be additional requirements that an affiliated professional can (should) fulfil.

Not for me nor the cat but for the busy bodies and bureaucrats who get involved when something goes wrong. But yes, you could say, the dog ate it. Oh it slipped my mind the name of the installer, think his name was John Smith or David Jones, he was based in London, contacts were on my old phone etc...

Mainly I didn't want to do something illegal, sounds like it's not the case, just might not be totally compliant in the full letter of the prescribed standard whereby I can probably do a pretty decent job of getting the installation right at least.

Thank you I have already taken into account some of the articles here and it has been a useful resource to cross reference against.

I'm asking such people for advice here so I'll happily take these "published works" and mis apply it thank you :-D

It's possible that MCS certification can be skipped:

It has to be said I find all of this fascinating, perhaps in another life I was a sparky? Alas I was pushed down an academic route and ended up in a desk job where a part of my job is to pick apart software specifications - I'm well versed in the implications of a misplaced 'should' when they meant 'must' and imprecise language. I am also a perennial over-thinker. Hopefully this is endearing???!!! (Not sure my wife agrees!)

The joke of all this is I have twice replaced that fan and changed transformer without a second's thought to check any regulation. Although I now understand that would have been allowed anyway.

As I said last night and quite possibly while you were typing up your extremely comprehensive reply (thank you for this), beyond having issues selling the house or SWAT raiding the house looking for cables clipped on top of joists, the main risks I want to avoid;

• Causing a fatality (myself or another). Hopefully through clarifying further questions here and having things sense checked I can greatly reduce this.
• Invalidating the house insurance. I happen to work for an insurance company, if they can get out of paying something, they will, for the most part. Not sure how I can get around this one, other than paying for someone to do it (so it's on their insurance instead) or praying something doesn't happen (knowing that something can happen and it wasn't even related to my installation method, eg vermin etc).

It blows my mind a little bit there can be a statutory requirement (the building regs) that defer to another specification (the IET BS 7671) that is not freely available, sure if you want a paper copy charge £60 for the ream of paper but people shouldn't have to resort to clandestine methods like the link kindly provided by Theo.

I'm preaching to the wrong place here but there should also be a householder's guide IMO. Most people are aware and accept they can't touch the boiler or gas supply themselves, it's clear and intuitive what can and can't be done and what to expect of someone you hire in terms of qualifications (gas safe etc). I'm still not sure on the electrical side!

Now I've seen the approved document, I can now express what I was trying to say more succinctly. It is agreed that notification not required, and it's agreed BS 7671 is the preferred way to meet the building regs. Given BS 7671 features requirements and advice on design and installation, and inspection, testing and certification of electrical installations whether notifiable or not, then doing work that looks like an electrician did it (design and installation) but selectively ignoring the rest is not following the regulations. It seems binary to me, either comply to everything, or it's not compliant. Then as individuals we accept we may be partially compliant and maybe that's enough for our peace of mind.

Hence 'most'. If you skip MCS you're locked into Octopus (and another supplier who was thinking of following them, not sure if they have).

Theo

The price list for mine starts at £350 for electrical work. I assume that reflects that they themselves pay an electrician to do it and to discourage many little jobs coming their way.

I learnt from the books and following links that those on the NAPIT register under the 3rd party certification. The requirement is they must be involved before during and after the work, the involvement throughout is presumably what gives them the confidence. Whether they want to certify DIY work is another thing and maybe the whole process will cost as much if not more than just paying them to do it for some jobs like mine.

I've been there. At least I know the RCD works ha ha ha (cry)

I was a FTB for this house and had the solicitor brought it up (no mention of it) then we would have been worried. In hindsight we were spooked by some of the survey results that looking back were not an emergency. But felt like it at the time of course.

Sure, if not buying a new or nearly-new house then it's normal to expect things to need doing. In a way wish we'd re-wired when we moved in because it'll be far more disruptive to do it in the future now we've redecorated etc.

The whole scheme is the typical over-bureaucratic exercise. All it needed was for inverters to be certified ones and the connection/automatic isolation/earthing at the connection to the grid to be checked to be up to standard. What's on the householder's side of the inverter should be irrelevant - particularly with many system now being plug-n-play.

As a FTB, I was still iving at my parents, about a mile away. The sale went through on 10th September and I didn't move in until 2nd January - giving me plenty of time to re-wire, re-plumb, replace the central heating, repair damaged plaster, paint and decorate, carpet, etc.

Any changes later have been very difficult - with myself, my wife and 3 children, in a 3 bedroomed semi, with a through living room.

MCS was originally a gatekeeper for various grants - made it harder for cowboys to set up, bodge an install to claim the grant and leg it. It seems that it's got tangled up with the export tariffs which, unlike the original FIT, aren't government funded any more. But nobody is motivated to remove the nice little protection club.

MCS does seem to be a lot of paperwork and not actually inspecting the install to check it's up to scratch.

(There are also still some grant-funded solar installs around - eg for those on low incomes - and arguably MCS might still be needed to protect the grants for those)

Theo

Not actually true though. The rules simply state that you must be "competent" and cannot do gas work for payment. I have (having worked in industry, with gas at much higher pressures), replaced the sagging, almost flat at the supports, lead gas pipes from the meter to the gas-fire, boiler and gas cooker, with copper. I have also moved the gas cooker point from one side of the kitchen to the other (against an outer wall to make fitting an extractor easier).

I may also, hmmm, hmmm, have installed my original boiler 31 years ago and two replacements since, without informing Building Control - and, if asked, I definitely don't have a spare boiler sitting in my parents' garage.

I wish there was more infrastructure for 'load your stuff into a shipping container on the drive and rent somewhere else for a month or two' when moving house. Saves all the troubles with chains, having to move in on the day you move out of your old place and refurbish while in residence.

Theo

I could do that. I cleared my M-I-Ls house when she died, moving everything that we wanted to keep (including 3-piece suite, tables, cooker, etc., by hiring a 7.5-tonner (for the space, not the weight), with tail-lift and taking everything to a self-storage place. If we were moving or really needed to clear much of the house for work, I'd consider doing that again.

As we needed to store stuff for a long period (we wanted the kids to be old enough to not wreck it) and didn't want to keep paying storage costs for years, we eventually put up a shed, lined it and moved everything there later. I also planned ahead and once stuff emptied out, that shed became my railway room.