where to find tim

Adequate as in 'more than sufficient'.

And there was me thinking you loved animals, turns out you are a speciesist.

It's all down to intent, indoctrination and empathy Rob.

I liked a bacon sandwich but am more than satisfied with the animal death and suffering free alternatives, simply because it's free of animal death and suffering.

Yup, they can be and are certainly getting better all the time [1].

Do you think the chemicals are any worse than the chemicals they put into most other (non vegan) products?

What people don't link is the connection between the meat they eat and the pollution and greenhouse gasses they create whilst doing so that isn't anything like the same when eating a plant based diet. That pollution etc affects *everyone's* heath.

Cheers, T i m

'For a treat ...'. Given the reason that many vegan's go that way is for the ethics of not wanting to kill or exploit animals, I would have thought (the logic of that, even if you weren't a vegan) would be that you would have the dead animal sausages 'as a treat', the norm being that there is less animal pain and death and so you would only make animals suffer less frequently (as a treat)?

Yup, like a lot of overpriced animal based foods?

See above.

Exactly. ;-)

Any *processed* foods, vegan or otherwise is likely to be worse for us than non processed foods and given we (humans) have lived longer eating just fruit / nuts / veg that than we have also been eating meat.

I'm fairly sure that no-one on here is anti-vegan. What people *are* against is T i m ' s constant proselytising, unending claptrap, patent gullibility, blinkered vision, and repeated foul accusations against individuals of animal torture and animal rape, while at the same time refusing even to acknowledge other forms of animal cruelty that he seems uninterested in pursuing.

Well its the same thing that has made me tempted to hate gay people black people and foreigners, since I have been repeatedly told how s*it I am compared to all of them, and how much I secretly hate them.

Precisely. His metaphysics are inconsistent. He claims logical a belief in the sanctity of animal life, whist slaughtering bacteria, viruses vegetables and fungi mercilessly.

It is the wildest case of anthropomorphism imaginable, And yet he doesn?t see it.

Bacterial Lives Matter!

Well, everyone is a foreigner to someone else, so you seem tempted to hate everyone. Perhaps you're just feeling a bit grumpy this morning? :)

I know some plants that are very clear on that subject....

Not in the sense of lining them up against a wall, no.

You said it, Buster.

Actually I don't hate anyone. I am lazy. It's too much like hard work

Product details

Vitamin B12 10 ?g Food Supplement, 60 Tablets

What does it do? Ideal for those following a Vegetarian or Vegan diet.

It?s recommended when following a Vegetarian or Vegan diet to consume foods fortified with B12 or a daily supplement. Vitamin B12 is a key nutrient that supports overall health including healthy red blood cell formation and *maintaining a normal nervous system*. Additionally, Vitamin B12 also helps to reduce tiredness and fatigue.

It's not odd to me. If you try to change habits and a mind set that people have had for a whole lifetime, 'of course' they are likely to kick up a fuss, especially 'old men' and especially 'men', because that's what they do.

That's why there was little point me trying to come here with a straight request for people to 'stop eating meat' because why would 'they' want to bother doing that? After all, it's not them suffering and dying is it?

So what I did was put people in the (hypothetical situation that of course none of the trolls would, and none of the left brainers could consider) situation of 'Ok, if you had to get a licence to buy / eat meat by actually doing what you pay others to do, would / could you?' and I only got a couple of straight answers and a load of BS?

From the trolls like nymshifter Spike/Burk, Fredxx, Richard and the Squeaker Goblin, for sure (they all fit into the picture on the left):

That certainly seems to be the case re all the Supermarkets / Fast Food places ramping up their vegan offerings and the TV ads supporting such.

No, because all you are likely to do is 'offend' the tribal viewpoint on someone who loves / hates cats or loves / hates dogs. There will be plenty (here even) who have (or have had) both, either individually or simultaneously and can't see what the fuss is about. There are no real victims there (on the whole), unlike with *all* live stock.

However, when it comes to our treatment of said 'LIVE stock' (two words that I'm not sure belong together in the first place), given the range of alternatives these days, the wasted resources, the greenhouse gasses created by live stock and the pollution caused, only 'speciesism', 'logical inconsistency or 'cognitive dissonance' can explain how we 'love' our pets, (and 'Wildlife?') but have so little respect for *SOME* other species that we have arbitrarily decided that we can treat / exploit how we like?

So, not wanting to be part of all that animal suffering and exploitation, we (as in this family) went vegan in Veganuary and are happy (because we are no longer in moral conflict) actually doing our bit by impacting the demand and so the supply.

As more people do that, as more people move over to non animal, more plant-based lifestyles then there will be even less suffering.

And no one (especially the vegans) have suggested veganism is the answer to all the questions / problems. What it is those is an answer to a great big chunk of them that we (the people) can do with very little effort ... and why I'm guessing the likes of Asda / M&S are creating dedicated 'vegan' isles to mate it easier to meet that demand.

The thing is, if you are following a vegan diet the chances are you are already consuming foods that are 'fortified' with B12, typically the case with many cereals and milk alternatives etc.

Add to that, anyone who takes a multivitamin tablet will also be getting B12 (as we have been doing for a good few years) then you don't have the problem.

The sham is that because the animals we used to get B12 from often don't get it themselves, we have to feed *them* B12 supplements in the hope that we will be able to extract the B12 from the animal protein, which we can't do as easily as us taking the B12 supplements directly!

If you don't believe you have the right to 'just' kill or exploit an animal because you like how they or their excretions taste, then everything else falls into place.

"Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose."

I think we need to establish that many people here aren't anti-vegan at all.

That people like myself are against being told I should have a license to eat meat and how left-brained I am or how thick I am.

I, for one embrace other lifestyles, it is a shame that a minority are so fanatical and hold extreme views that they are unable to embrace other lifestyles that eat meat.

The only taunting from me is at the invitation of Tim, when he posts off topic for the forum and abuses those who disagree with him or enjoy a different lifestyle.

It doesn't help that his motives behind inflicting others with his own lifestyle are highly suspect as well as showing blatant hypocrisy.

Many don't support the continued pain and suffering of animals and campaign to improve animal welfare.

By way of example, you wouldn?t campaign to stop animals being bled out whilst upside down and aware of their surroundings whereas I do.

As part of a balanced diet it may well be healthy, but where taken to the extreme for many adopting the change to total veganism, B12 deficiency will eventually creep up on them with disastrous consequences especially with their mental health.

You show much evidence of hating dogs and enjoy torturing them, does that make you a speciesist?

Or is that a good example of your cognitive dissonance?

Seeing the range of replies here so far I am reminded that in the 16 years I've been posting to uk.d-i-y, the most disgusting troll I've ever come across is the one currently calling itself 'Fredxx'.

The lies, the disingenuous statements, the fabrication of 'my goals' and that of vegans in general, the twisting of the facts are beyond any that any other troll has managed so far. It is sick.

It does hate all vegans as they would be asking of it no more or less than I have.

I gave it a chance, I tried to reason with it ... but (of course) it was to no avail.

If it supported slavery (and I'm sure it would have as it supports animal slavery), it's idea of 'campaigning for improved slave welfare would be only that, getting the slaves lighter chains, whereas mine is ending slavery completely.