Skimmed Milk

[Brian Reay]

I've got this vision of you trying to get a cat to stand over a milking pail while you do the necessary.

[Richard]

I haven't, but then my cat is a neutered male.

[Richard]

Dunno. I'm not a vegan. T i m will be along shortly to educate you.

[Brian Reay]

And you are concerned about milking cows......

[Richard]

And Sherlock, how exactly did you deduce that? You seem to have taken being thick to a whole new unexplored level. Congrats.

[NY]

As an omnivore (ie I eat meat/fish as well as veg, nuts, etc) I have to admit that using the milk (or products made from milk) from your own species or any other is a pretty bizarre thing to do. Perfectly normal because that's how we have been brought up, but still (looking at it from the point of view of an alien) utterly bizarre.

I wonder how it first began. I suppose when humans began foraging for food they tried all the various sources: plant/tree-based and eating animals (other animals do it so let's try it) are fairly logical. But milk? WTF. One wonders whether other "liquids" from animals were tried before being rejected as unpalatable or having "squeamish" connotations ;-) (*)

I'd make a pretty poor vegetarian or vegan because I hate (cooked) green vegetables as an accompaniment to a meal. That's "hate" to the extent that I eat them because it's socially expected and because they are good for me, and yet resented because most green vegetables (except celery) have such as strong "green veg" flavour that they really spoil a meal.

OK, so there's still nuts and cereals. And raw veg (carrots, celery) are fine - I actually like those. But I imagine I'd be penalising myself by restricting a significant part of a vegetarian's/vegan's diet based on what I actually found vaguely enjoyable to eat ;-)

I remember going on a National Trust working holiday. The couple who were in charge were both vegans and they said they were quite happy to cook non-vegan for us alongside their own vegan food, but at the same time they tried to get us interested and educated in a vegan diet and way of life - in a reasonably non-judgemental way: there was no "we're better than you because we don't eat meat". On the final night there was a barbecue and there was a selection of carnivore, vegetarian and vegan food. For me, the vegetarian food was perfectly palatable and some even had flavourings that gave a hint of meat. And then there was the vegan food which I found to be very bland and underwhelming. I dare say if I had to go vegan (for health reasons) or if I decided to do it for moral reasons, I'd adjust eventually, to the extent that meat would probably taste foul.

Are there degrees of veganism, or is it always all or nothing? I know there are some "vegetarians" who will eat fish and/or white meat but not red meat - and therefore who are not really vegetarians. IS there the same latitude with vegans - "full" and "partial"?

(*) I'll never forget an episode of Jonathan Creek where he was about to try a pot of what he thought was yoghurt, only to be told with a snigger that it was bull s**en.

[T i m]

<snip>

Typically, yes and depending on how they (the cow / animal) died.

So were the herds of buffalo found in America domesticated?

So cows would die out -

Even in places like India?

See above. And what's this 'additional crop-growing'. From what I have seen it takes more area to grow crops to feed a cow than it would to feed more people than a cow typically feeds? And then there is the water consumption by cattle, the nitrate run-off into the watercourses and estuaries and the methane production (18% of GH gasses). I'm not sure cattle can convert CO2 into oxygen either. ;-)

Except it seems most fleeces can't be given away these days or sell at less than the cost of having them sheered. ;-(

I think the question would be 'what happens to sheep in the wild'? It may be similar to dairy cows in that a cow would only typically produce enough milk for it's calves and would stop producing milk once it had weaned. So 'in nature', anything that can have hair grow beyond a certain manageable length would generally shed it every so often or have some other way of maintaining it themselves.

If a domesticated animal needs shearing because we have bred it to produced an 'unnatural' amount of hair then we are 'exploiting' that animal and that's against the basic tenant of most Vegans. Similar with silk etc.

As our daughter transitioned from a classic omnivore to Pescatarian to Vegetarian she initially used an animals perceived level of 'sentience' as a guide. eg, She wouldn't eat a pig or cow (both are quite intelligent) but might eat a shrimp for example.

Now she's a vegan she doesn't eat nor 'exploit' and animal.

It's very difficult to square keeping a pet (and often spending fortunes on it in food and medical care, even in it's old age when it would have probably died in the wild) and having a perfectly healthy calf killed on their behalf for some 'veal' (or baby cow meat [1]).

It's the disconnection between feeding that cow (or horse, or goat etc) in a roadside field some fruit or nice grass and picking up a slab of the same animal when it's all nicely processed on the shelf in a supermarket that allows 'most people' (especially children) to eat meat at all.

Cheers, T i m

[1] Boy calves aren't wanted in the dairy trade so are often slaughtered.

[T i m]

<snip>

Strange, you seem to put yourself forward as an expert on most other things. ;-)

Or you could do what I do:

Cheers, T i m

[Brian Reay]

Mozzarella Cheese is, traditionally made from Water Buffalo Milk.

Whether domesticate cattle could survive if 'we' stopped caring for them is open to debate. Chances are many would die long before they could adapt.

Kept as pets, very well cared for in some cases.

Also, there is an 'underground' trade in beef etc.

[Richard]

Time for your enema T i m, you're full again.

[alan_m]

My local Lidl had plenty 6pm Saturday.

[Roger Hayter]

Precisely this logic would justify slavery.

[spuorgelgoog]

Not really, because human slaves could survive if they weren't slaves.

Cows would generally not survive if they weren't farmed.

Okay, so what's so bad about slavery anyway? <g,d&r>

Owain

[T i m]

<snip>

Seeing how the Buffalo I was talking off will often see off Lions, I wouldn't want to try milking one. ;-)

Assuming they don't initially explode from milk production, it might depend when and were they became 'free'.

Most probably yes.

And left to roam the streets, fending for themselves in others.

I can believe it. ;-(

When animals are kept / consumed as they are with some of the remaining nomadic tribes then it's sorta the way it has been and has worked for thousands of years. They didn't have steroids, (probably) artificial insemination or milking parlours that could handle a hundred cows at once. ;-(

I wonder what percentage of the human originated greenhouse gases the domesticated livestock produced 1000 years ago? I wonder if it was greater than the ~18% it is now (given how low our other GGE were then)?

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

Quite. It's also something we have had to adapt to because it's not digestively normal either.

Quite.

It does make you wonder.

"Here, I wonder what cow breast milk tastes like?"

Yup ... and even found that cooking stuff made it easier to eat and digest. We couldn't digest many raw vegetables as easily as some animals (or at all in many cases) and couldn't digest raw meat as easily as others.

I know! But don't get me wrong, I've been consuming it for most of my life but as with many things, we learn more and create solutions / alternatives (for all sorts of reasons).

Well, some certainly drink (warm even) animal blood because they think it gives them special powers or for religious / ritualistic reasons.

I think my taste buds have mellowed as I've got older because like you I round the taste of some green veg to be very strong and unpleasant. It's been suggested we could be 'super tasters' and we taste such things differently to the majority. However, I think babies / young kids not liking things like Brussel sprouts is quite common?

See above and this sort of thing:

For me it was always things like cabbage, spinach, sprouts, broccoli, kale, etc.

Now I 'don't mind' most of those and will also eat a few sprouts (at Xmas) but still mainly because like you I understand they are good for me.

Most are pretty innocuous.

And peas, all quite sweet.

I was talking to someone once about the taste of some veg and they said they liked sprouts. They then went on to tell me how, after mostly cooking them they fried them in garlic butter and so 'disguised' the taste I was talking of. ;-(

I'm still not sure I like many of the tastes or textures of many of the foodstuffs used by veterans (lentils, chick peas, tofu ..) but now days they make things from them (so you get the benefits) but in a way that still taste good to those who favour traditional stuff.

Fair enough.

Yup.

That can be the case.

Personally, I don't think I'd ever not enjoy the taste and texture of most meats, even though I've never been a big meat eater (never had what looks like just a plate full of steak etc). I used to eat the liver Mum cooked me, until I found a tube in it and that would make me gag and I wouldn't finish the meal. Gristle in other meats cause me to act similarly, along with bones in fish. So in many cases, Vegan / Quorn based protein is more predictable than some meats.

Only how strict you choose to be. Eg, you might not eat anything that was from an animal or caused an animal to be used but might wear leather shoes or a leather belt.

Quite, there are actually different names for the different 'stages':

Sorta.

The bottom line is that if you have gone Vegan because you don't like cruelty to animals (and that's the main feature and often not only how they are killed at the end) then you would generally be supportive of anyone who was heading that way, ideally for those reasons (not *just* because of the health benefits etc) even if it only meant say not eating meat one day per week?

We have been advised by the health experts to 'cut down' on how much read meat we consume and cut back even more what processed meat we eat and we (the Mrs and I) were already going that way because it sounded like a good thing to do (all round).

So, the next time you are in a supermarket (typically more choice), see if they do any Quorn chunks to make what would be a 'chicken' curry with (if you like that sort of thing). I fried 1/2 a bag of Quorn chunks with some onion and mushrooms whilst boiling some frozen small veg and some basmati rice (separate pots <g>). Once the quorn was browned slightly (10 mins) and the veg just done I drained the veg and put them with the Quorn and onions and tipped on a jar of Sainsburys (basics) curry sauce. Bring that all to the simmer, drain / serve the rice and add the Quorn / veg mix to the middle and serve. A popadom or two and a lager rounds it off quite nicely or if we saw some reduced, an onion bargee or two. ;-)

Now, is it the best curry I've ever eaten? No. Is it a quick, easy and reasonably well balanced meal that is curryish and fills a hole, yes every time [1] ;-)

Fake (Quorn) bacon, mushrooms, tomatoes and baked (or '5 beans') beans on a slice of wholemeal toast and a mug of decaff tea (with oat milk) is still a nice brunch for us ... and again, no animals were harmed in the making etc. ;-)

Substitute the brunch Facon for Linda Mcartney sausages, or a SpagBol / Chili with Quorn / Vegan mince or Quorn meatballs, baked (microwaved and crisped in the oven) sweet potato, frozen veg (mainly peas, beans, carrots) and gravy and that's a few more perfectly edible meals that no animal had to die for you to enjoy.

I do most of the 'cooking' and she's generally happy with whatever I produce for her. We have never had any form of meal routine (time or content) and often I don't know what I'll produce till I've had a look in the freezer / fridge / cupboards at that moment.

And I am talking straightforward (reasonably balanced) 'meals' here, not 'fancy cooking'.

That said, the Mrs will often ask me if it's real meat or not and has

*never* suggested anything that wasn't meat wasn't fine to eat (even if we may not have that particular (/experimental) combination again).

Nice (not). ;-(

Talking of that though, tonight I cut up some fruit (apple, plumb and some grapes) and had it with some vanilla Alpro yogurt (substitute). [2]

Cheers, T i m

[1] And the 'every time' bit is important to us as we don't like wasting food and I don't like wasting my time cooking stuff neither of us will eat. Luckily, we eat to live, not live to eat. ;-) [2] I used to suffer with a fairly mucus cough that one doctor linked to the consumption of dairy. So I cut a lot of it out and I did enjoy a large improvement. It might have been a vast / complete improvement, hat I not still enjoy some cheese now and again and that's still one of the 'not quite' areas re Vegan (cheese). Some is ok as say cheese on toast (with tomato or onion / Wostershire sauce) but less so straight on crackers etc.

[T i m]

I think 'domesticated cattle', especially ex dairy might not survive in all of the UK or not on mass anyway.

I believe there are some breeds however that can / do live outside all year round and give enough top feed on, don't have much that would predate on them? So it'd just a matter of how hardy they may or may not be against disease and issues when giving birth (that happens in nature in any case).

I think when we camped in the New Forest last there were cows (and wild boar?) allowed to roam. I'm not sure if they (the cows especially) would be out all winter though?

Highland cattle probably are?

Chickens haven't evolved much and would probably be ok (but not against predators etc), as would pigs, goats and sheep (give access to enough grazing etc).

;-)

Cheers, T i m

[Brian Reay]

I asked someone who used to get up at some ungodly hour, day in day out, to do the first milking and then do the second later in the day, what would happen if a cow wasn?t milk. It would almost certainly die was the answer.

Beef cattle may be ok, I suppose.

[T i m]

That's the point, I don't believe that wouldn't happen 'naturally', if say a cow had a single calf and it died suddenly.

It's just that we have artificially forced dairy cows to yield milk at the rate of a machine, if that not drawn off daily I'm not sure what would happen?

If a cow in nature loses it's calf there is a good chance she would dry up before anything bad happened?

This is our exploitation of an animal, no different to making a donkey walk round in circles all day pumping water or keeping something in a small cage to eventually kill it for it's pelt.

They should be and are intelligent enough to seek shelter, lay down, huddle and do whatever to survive.

Have you seen the chip that can memorise and select in numerical sequence 9 numbers (and more) when flashed in front of it for 60 SIXTY MILLISECONDS!

No human could get anywhere near that and yet we might consider ourselves superior to them?

Then we consider the other attributes that animals have that we don't. Like how a dog knows what time it is for it's dinner without a watch, or knows when you are pulling up outside by the sound of your car over all the others, or how a bird can find it's way back to it's nest over thousands of miles ... with no mechanical compass or GPS. ;-)

It's also suggested that whales may have a higher level of emotion than us. Imagine what that must feel like for a mum whale as it's harpooned baby is dragged off?

They say if whales screamed like most mammals would when being dissected alive we humans might not do it? ;-(

I believe they are now doing 'animal testing' on Coronavirus vaccines ... when in many cases those test prove little either way. They have since found many drugs that killed animals are fine for humans and the other way round, often putting a load of animals though pain and suffering for nothing. ;-(

Considering we have been on this planet for less time than many of the animals we persecute, we are a pretty arrogant bunch. ;-(

Cheers, T i m

[Brian Reay]

I'll leave you to go off on one off your rants...

[NY]

Part of the problem would be that if you took a dairy herd (assuming none of them were pregnant) and turned them loose, they would die out in a generation even if they survived not being milked and could find sufficient grass once the field that they had been in had been (partly) converted to cereal crop - because there are no males.