OT: Travellers

[Huge]

These days "race" is a Humpty-Dumpty word.

[Robin]

Indeed. As for example in the Equality Act where race can mean colour, nationality/citizenship, and ethnic or national origins/groups. Hence British people of Pakistani heritage, Sikhs, Jews, Romany Gypsies and Irish Travellers are all "races".

[bert]

But not Scousers

[Roger Hayter]

As there is actually no such thing as a biological race of human beings (at least in the world at present) then it is not surprising that definitions are neither constant nor universal. The Irish can indeed complain about discrimination (which is fair because historically they have been victims of quite pervasive discrimination in the UK) but I think the wording of the Act is actually to protect race *or* nationality, without implying they are the same thing.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Poor thing. You should get yourself a nice boyfriend then and reap the rewards of being gay. It's a free world, after all.

[Robin]

I don't see where I or anyone else implied race and nationality were the same. Please compare what I wrote about the meaning of "race" in the Act with what the Act - which as you know is feely available online - provides in Section 9 (Race). It starts:

"(1)Race includes?

(a)colour;

(b)nationality;

(c)ethnic or national origins."

NB not "race or nationality" but "race includes...nationality".

[spuorgelgoog]

Don't be silly. Bill couldn't possibly go gay. He'd have to throw out all his favourite cardigans.

Owain

[RJH]

snip

The problem is insufficient decent sites.

Not surprised. Horrible thing to happen.

You meant to congratulate them for trying to murder people? Blimey.

[spuorgelgoog]

There are plenty of decent sites, but "travellers" aren't welcome there and wouldn't pay the pitch fees anyway.

Owain

[T i m]

Whilst most wouldn't condone murder for most reasons, you can understand the animosity they get because of their *antisocial* behaviour.

The same would apply towards anyone one who seems take and not give ... and cost landowners and / or the local councils (and therefore ratepayers) fortunes in the process whilst clearing up their mess (and that seems to be the biggest issue by far when the general public are polled).

So, driving potentially stolen, untaxed and uninsured vehicles (knowing it's fairly unlikely the authorities will be able to do anything about it).

Cash-in-hand low-quality work (drives and landscaping) with the waste fly tipped.

Ripping off the gullible (old people with unnecessary work, like replacing broken roof tiles, re pointing ridges, or removing moss etc).

Theft of property (crime rate goes up when they are in town, sheds and out buildings broken into etc).

'Trouble' ... sometimes as a consequence of any of the above and direct conflict / confrontation in local pubs etc.

Preventing people exercising their right to use local facilities, like kids using the park etc.

Damage to the environment (fly tipping toxic waste).

So, when it seems that the authorities can do little to not only prevent them or then punishing them for trespassing (like the confiscation and disposal of *all* their vehicles) or carrying out illegal activities (uninsured driving / property theft) it's understandable why some / many (especially those directly impacted) would rather see them (and anyone acting similarly) off the planet. ;-(

It's a big step from that to actually doing something about it yourself of course.

Personally, as long as people are being socially responsible (and the majority are) I'm all for 'live and let live', but for that to happen you often also have to follow the 'when in Rome ...' to some degree.

Cheers, T i m

p.s. I'm led to believe that when a static 'camp' (?) was provided for travelers locally, one of the first things they did was smash up the communal toilets they also built on site for them, that way they wouldn't have to pay water rates or summat?

[T i m]

We turned up at a campsite when on our family motorcycle / camping holiday, only to see a sign at the gate saying 'No motorcycles'. It was getting late, it was drizzling and we just needed to find someone to camp to rode around the corner to another site.

I went into the reception and asked if they had any vacant pitches (they did) and asked if they had any issues with 'motorcycles' (citing the sign at the camp round the corner) and they responded, 'we don't have any issues with how anyone get's here as long as you pay the fees and act responsibly ... if you don't, you will be thrown off'. ;-)

Apparently (we later found out) the camp round the corner had recently suffered a fairly large group of loud / antisocial 'bikers' and so they had spoiled it for me, my wife and our daughter (and others of course), who would have acted the same had we turned up there by motorcycles, cycles, boat or car.

Cheers, T i m

p.s. The biggest issue for us when camping were people coming back to the site late (and probably from the pub) in vehicles that seemed to have 200 doors that could only be closed by being slammed 10 times each! I guess they didn't know that most car doors could be closed fully by a firm and silent push?

[Huge]

Which should be paid for, how, exactly? Given that travellers pay no taxes.

Not for the locals who would have had to put up with the crime, pollution, harassment and vandalism caused by the travellers.

I wondered who would be the first to pop up with this canard.

[whisky-dave]

you forgot the most important which is culture.

[RJH]

No, I don't accept your implication, except that maybe racists and psychopaths might behave in such a way. And who are 'they' supposed to be?

Well, I won't snip any of that just to clarify - are you saying all travellers, and especially those in question, exhibit any (let alone all) of that little lot?

And even if they did, which I doubt, I don't think that they and their families deserved to die.

[Tim+]

Well it's hard to say whether *all* travellers exhibit that lot, but from my own experience I can say that *every* traveller that's illegally camped in my home town has exhibited all those traits.

I don't think they deserve to die either but I think it's easy to see why they generate so much animosity. It's their abysmal behaviour that drives people to such extremes.

Tim

[RJH]

We've been through the issue of tax several times on this NG. Just about everybody - even children - pay tax through the simple act of buying goods and servcies (for example).

And that leaves aside the stereotype that no traveller works. And LAs have a wide set of responsibilities - not all linked to payment.

Well, your 'canard' words, not mine - unless I'm misinterpreting something. - Cheers, Rob

[T i m]

Quite ... I bet some of the women don't but I suspect they have their own bad traits. ;-)

I'd modify that from my own personal observations to say that 'from nearly every traveler camp that I've been aware of has come some of the behaviour from at least some of the camps members'.

I didn't suggest they should either?

Quite. Never said it was right legally but if someone has their life ruined by their action (by anyone's knowingly malicious action) then some might think that an appropriate outcome for them.

And there are some people where there really aren't any other forms of punishment that would have any impact.

Eye for an eye? Do unto others ... ?

Cheers, T i m

[Bill Wright]

The problem is that they don't behave properly.

Bill

[RJH]

Well, call me naive(!) but I didn't think those sorts of attitudes were still about in mainstream British society. Of course, some travellers are possibly as you describe. Much the same as 'some greengrocers'.

But to extrapolate up, and suggest for all practical purposes that travellers as a group behave as you suggest, is. Um.

Frustrating. You both seem pretty well read and life experienced. 'Bury me Standing' was quite formative for me, and put a lot of my own observations made by my mid-20s into some sort of context. And I shared an office with somebody close to traveller families for 10 years at work, and became familiar with her research. When I worked for the council as a housing officer I had a lot more contact with travellers; also as a teacher in Hackney for 10 years.

Dunno. I find these attitudes all a terrible shame and a mess. tragic.

[Tim Streater]

Blimey. You worked as a housing officer and also as a teacher for all that time, and you never came across people with primitive attitudes to life? Where was this? Esher? Henley?

Astonishing.