New Woodburner Regulations

[Dave Plowman (News)]

That is not the story we were told at BBC ETD. NTSC was simply not consistent enough for domestic use in practice.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

So even less point having a light bulb that saves 40 watts?

And you seem to be making the common mistake that people are being forced to rush out and buy a more efficient vacuum, which they're not. So why are you so against them having a more efficient one available when they do need a replacement?

[Tim Streater]

I found it relatively poor when I lived in the US. And you got a lot of sound-on-vision and vice versa on cheap sets. Plus as has been pointed out, you needed a tint knob.

[NY]

I'd always judged LED lamps by the GU10 spotlights that we bought to replace the tungsten ones in our bathroom and in the kitchen light fitting. They tend to produce dimmer lighting and in a more restricted angle - definitely not as good as 60W tungsten bulbs.

Then we bought a few Philips Hue lights. Leaving aside the fact that they can be adjusted to various colours (we'd probably buy fixed-colour ones when it came to replace the daylight CFLs that we have through the house) they are very bright - most impressive. I'm not sure what the equivalent tungsten wattage is, but I'd estimate somewhere between the equivalent of 60W and

100W, while using 7W of power.

It's a shame that a lot of the smaller bulbs (eg candle) are only available in screw fittings, which means using a bayonet to screw adaptor (increasing the length) in an existing light fitting, or else finding a matching screw fitting that can replace the bayonet ones in a light cluster fitting.

[RJH]

Possibly - bit like an electric shower. But/and a fair bit of time - when doing stairs for example - it isn't doing anything except making a noise (unless you switch off between steps).

No, kettles are pretty much 100% efficient. A hoover is nothing like that - witness the noise for a start. 3kW kettles are a wonderful thing.

Agreed. I don't use hot water much - household cleaning and very grubby mitts. Most of the time cold does me fine.

[RJH]

More to the point - why consume it in the first place?

[Dave Plowman (News)]

If you followed the discussions when this reduction in maximum vacuum cleaner power was proposed, you'd know that it *was* possible to reduce that power consumption without effecting the amount of 'suck' by better design. Indeed, Dyson wanted a lower limit than the one settled on.

It's not the same with a kettle or many other heating devices. Near enough

100% of the energy used goes into heating the water. Unlike a vacuum cleaner which produces noise, vibration and heat as well as suction.

You can encourage people to do anything, and they can choose to ignore you. Requiring a new device to have a certain level of efficiency removes them being able to ignore that.

[Capitol]

You have avoided the question with an opinion.

[NY]

True, but it also encourages people to hang onto a less efficient appliance which may use more energy but also has more of the end result that people buy it for.

For example if an older 1000W vac has better suction that a modern 500W (even though the modern one has better "suck per watt" performance) would you get rid of the old one or would you strive to keep it running because it does the job better, even though it costs more to run?

Likewise for light bulbs: tungsten ones tend to be smaller than LED or CFL ones of comparable brightness, and tend to have wider field of coverage (for GU10 spots) and reach full brightness much quicker than some CFLs. We have a light fitting in the kitchen which has 5 GU10 sockets. With tungstens, that lit the work surfaces much better than with LED replacements, so we might have to replace the fitting with one that takes seven, eight or nine bulbs to get the same brightness and fewer pools of darkness between one bulb and the next.

[Capitol]

The huge sums invested in semiconductors are invested to generate profits, if you are successful. In consumer products, 9 out of 10 products are failures, but you don't stop investing. The classic failure is 3D film and television, which consumes vast amounts of investment every 25 years or so. The classic success is RCA with colour television, which consumed vast amounts of investment for years before becoming a success. Tesla is a prime recent example of investment without apparent reward, time will tell if it is successful.

[charles]

See Pawley p519 - last 4 lines:

[Tim Streater]

Dave doesn't understand that innovation comes from the private sector, not from government. We'd still be using 300 baud GPO acoustic couplers otherwise.

[RJH]

My opinion is informed by the likes of:

The 'why' is within.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Does it? Most people buy a new vacuum when the old one fails. Apart from Dyson fans of course who must have the latest colour.

How would you know? In any case you can still buy a 1000 watt cleaner.

Doesn't seem to stop people on here raving about LEDs.

I'll not use any lamp that gives an inferior performance to tungsten here. But then I'd not accept an inferior performance from a new vacuum cleaner either.

[mechanic]

Energy? Conserved, innit!

[Dave Plowman (News)]

And you don't understand the difference between consumer toys and something so banal as a light bulb.

[dennis]

That might be why the EU regulations stipulated that they had to produce more suck for less power and not just use less power.

But less load on the generators.

Ban kettles and only have hot water dispensers that heat exactly the amount needed. Like the Tefal hot cup.

[damduck-egg]

The what? Tefal make something called the quick cup. Tried one a few years back and it was useless for tea as it does not supply boiling water. Used it twice and slung it. And you can't carry such a gadget outside with a reasonable quantity of hot water to soften the end of a plastic pipe or similar jobs.

G.Harman

[dennis]

Sorry brevil hot cup. It dispenses boiling water.

I use it to soften the the end of the pipe on my watering system without much trouble. Just put it in a plastic jug.

[Jeff Layman]

Lower wattage kettles use *more* energy to boil the same volume of water, because kettles aren't 100% efficient. They lose heat to the surrounding air, so the faster they heat the water, the shorter the heat loss.

For example, assume they lose the equivalent of 10 watts continuously. A

1000w kettle will heat the water in a given time, as it effectively supplies 990w. A 500w kettle will take more than twice as long as it supplies 590w, which is slightly less than half of 990w. Continue down to a 10w kettle, which never heats the water as it loses all of its heat to the surrounding air.