On 10-29-2013, 18:11, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote: > Of course you're morphing. Even you tried to claimn that
It was. "not code" is VERY vague.
He SAID that's what he meant.
He SAID that's what he meant. I NEVER claimed he was correct.
Didn't move the post. IF the water pipe is grounded properly, even an OPEN neutral at the pole will not make the pipe live. Impossible. Not bonding the neutral to ground can make the NEUTRAL higher than ground, which can give you a shock when touching the "grounded" chassis of an appliance and a "real" ground at the same time. That's the essence of "phantom voltage" problems that plagued rural america a few decades ago - where they used "ground return" (single wire distribution 135 volt AC IIRC)
BS. Can you read? I've provided the exact initial quote several times now, and the words were "no longer code". That is not vague.
Now, again you're wrong. It was "no longer code" in the original post. AFAIK, he never said "no longer required by code" If he did, just provide the cite. Again I provided what he did post:
"If you want to do something before help arrives, I might *look* (but not touch) for any clamps with wires that are attached to your water supply lines. Incoming phone terminals, CATV lines, the circuit box area and the furnace areas are places you might find a ground wire connection (no longer code).
-- Bobby G. "
And then he affirmed that was what he meant by this:
Robert: ""At least Philo knew I was specifically talking about ground wire connections made to water pipes at random places in the house. That's very clear to anyone but a raging flamer like you. Is that still code in NJ? I doubt it. They stopped approving such grounding methods *precisely* because of what's happened in Fred's case. "
(note with regard to the above, that he specifically listed the panel in his list of places to look for grounds to water pipes that are "no longer code", then he tried to change it to random places)
Robert: "It's clear why grounding to water pipes isn't the great idea it used to be even though in many old houses (like mine) you'll still find plenty of clamps attached to supply lines. The mains could be PVC, repairs in the house, even if it has copper plumbing could be plastic, etc. "
Under current code, having ground/bond wires from the panel to the metal water service and to the metal water pipes of the house itself if the service is plastic is *required* . If it isn't the great idea it used to be, why does current NEC require it?
It would be helpful if you addressed the facts here of the whole statements in context instead of talking about one alleged word here and there.
1 - Show us where he said that "not required by code is what he meant. Where he used the word, required. Maybe I missed it, but I don't believe so. And even if he did, as Bud and I have stated, it's still wrong. 2 - If you're not claiming he is correct, what the hell are you claiming? That he was wrong twice?
Geez, the source. That helps.
If we are not talking about connecting the water pipe as an earthing electrode....
You used to be able to connect entry protectors and other grounds (like adding a ground to a receptacle in an ungrounded circuit) anywhere on the water pipe. That is no longer code, but you can make the same connections withing 5 ft of the entry of the pipe to the house. (Connection can also be made a number of other spots.)
=========================
I remember about the same thing concerning using a water pipe as an earthing electrode maybe a couple months ago.
"Can" is wrong. It *must* be one of the earthing electrodes. It is one of the required electrodes, if present (10 ft...). Another required electrode is a "concrete encased electrode" (usually called a Ufer ground) if there is a concrete footing or foundation.
Yes and note who provided it, me not Wes.
In the quote he listed the circuit box as one place to look for a ground wire connected to a water pipe. That would include a wire connected from the panel to the water pipe as an earthing electrode. OP goes looking around the panel, sees it, and per the statement made thinks "Oh, that's no longer code" Or OP goes looking sees the wire from the panel clamped to the metal water pipes of the house and thinks "Oh, that's no longer code". As we agree, both are current code.
Agreed, he was wrong on that point too.
That's kind of what I envision may have happened assuming the OP has an old house, combined with a poor ground for the water pipes and an appliance with a shorted current carrying conductor to case ground.
I kinda wish he'd check back in and let us know what he found, because it's an interesting problem (in a scary sort of way) and would be nice to see who guessed right.
nate
Okay Fred, it's Wednesday, -- electrician day. Did he/she show up? What was the outcome?
Yes they showed up. But, it was after the fire department was here. I finally got electric back after almost 20 hrs without it.
Got some burnt siding by the outside spigot. Was fortunate enough to have an alert neighbor who awakened us, then called the fire department.
The fire chief did his investigation. I know I had to get a new box downstairs. Thankfully my deductible is only $250, and we are alive.
Ok - You must be busy, but what caused the fire, and the outside spigot involvement??? You have many folks waiting to hear.
yikes! I assume this was related to the problem you originally posted about? Hope everything gets fixed up OK and glad to hear that you're all right. Please do tell us what the issue was when you have a chance.
nate
You for real, Fred? We all knew it was serious, but, man, that's beyond serious.
I'm also wondering what was the problem. that sounds totally serious.
So, what was the problem? What did the electricians say? What did the fire chief say?
Glad you are OK but for crying out loud nearly everyone here told you it was SERIOUS and to get it checked IMMEDIATELY. Because you chose to ignore the advice you got you could have ended up fried.
Just because your input box was faulty and you got it replaced does not mean all your problems are solved. You still more than likely have an electrical ground attached somewhere to an ungrounded water pipe.
You need to get that resolved or some day you may get electrocuted.
It could be due to PCV piping having been put in at some point.
Additionally if you live in a dry , sandy area such as Texas it is very common for ground rods to have no grounding capability. They often need to be longer than the typical 3 or 6 foot rod...or else have water poured on them periodically.
Anyone else still wondering if this original post is real or someone is just trolling?
Because he ignored all advice I did suspect him of being a troll.
OTOH: Since this is a potentially life-threatening siutation I've decided to err on the side of caution.
When someone commits suicide in most situations close friends say they heard the person mention it but never took them seriously.
Well, we haven't heard what was the problem.
I did notice. It really helps to have the relevant source quoted.
Might. My service is connected to the water pipe within 5 ft of its entrance. There was an old water pipe connection for a telephone entry protector that was nowhere near the water pipe entry. But it was near the service panel.
I think it mostly supports the quote above. Around here there probably aren't many connections within 5 ft of the water pipe entrance other than power grounding electrode connections. It was common practice (and code compliant then) to connect the telephone entry protector to the nearest water pipe. I think a lot of the early cable installs also hit the nearest water pipe.
[Snip}
Almost from the beginning... when some tempers started to flare.
Happy Halloween!
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