Shocked!

[TomR]

But, you didn't answer any of the questions. You are not just messing with us, are you?

[clare]

Stop and think about it Stormy - even if that WERE the case, the water system is SUPPOSED to be grounded - and if it is properly rounded there is no potential difference between the water system and ground - and therefore no tingle or shock.

[TomR]

Okay, I see that you did answer the questions better elsewhere -- you get a constant buzz feeling when touching the fixture/valve/etc., and there is no carpeting etc.

So, I guess you are not "just messing with us".

I assume that the electrician will look for grounding issues to make sure all of the plumbing is grounded -- jumpers across the hot water heater, across the water meter, no loose clamps where a grounding wire is connected to any plumbing, maybe the presence of PVC or PEX plumbing that may be interrupting the plumbing fixtures from being grounded.

And, after that, trying to find where the source of current is coming from that is apparently leaking to the valves etc. that are causing you to feel a current/shock when you touch it.

Let us know what you find out.

[Scott Lurndal]

Section 250.104 of the NEC requires that metal water piping systems be bonded to one of the following:

• Service Equipment enclosure (at service entrance) * Grounded neutral service conductor (at service entrance) * Grounding electrode conductor when sized per table 250.66 * One of the electrodes of the grounding electrode system.

The grounding conductor must be sized appropriately with respect to the largest ungrounded service conductor (e.g. AWG2 for 4/0 service entrance).

This is for safety purposes, not to provide a grounding conductor for the premises.

This _DOES NOT IMPLY THAT SUCH A BONDING CONDUCTOR MAY REPLACE A CODE COMPLIANT GROUNDING ELECTRODE SYSTEM_.

In other words, the water pipe is bonded _to_ the real grounding means. The water pipe may not _be_ the premises grounding means (as of the 1999 code, or possibly earlier).

I suspect this is the root of your disagreement.

FWIW, bonding CATV to a cold water line isn't done by most cable systems anymore, as they have no assurance that the cold water line is actually bonded to the premises grounding electrodes, particularly in regions of the country where the water service lines were non-metallic or have been replaced by non-metallic piping (per the local Comcast tech staff).

scott

[Stormin Mormon]

Stop and think about it, Clare. If the OP wishes not to be shocked, s/he ought to FIND the problem. As such, looking for PROBLEMS like a bad NEUTRAL would help FIND and SOLVE the problem. Improving the ground will NOT do much about the SOURCE of the electricity.

[trader4]

It may not be the *only* grounding electrode. The water service pipe entering the house is however one of a number of permissible grounding electrodes that can be part of the grounding system.

I agree, for new, recent contruction. But what was proposed was to send the OP off on a search for things like CATV, phone, and even the electric panel that are connected to a water pipe and that such a connection is "no longer code". That to me at least, implies that it's something that is wrong and possibly the source of his shock problem. In fact, there are millions of older homes where the cable TV is bonded to a cold water pipe. Nothing wrong, inherently unsafe, or that needs to be fixed. In fact, it's still code compliant to ground a CATV cable to a water pipe, under certain circumstances.

[Wes Groleau]

You looked at "no longer code" and saw "wrong"

Not obvious what he meant, but he didn't _say_ "wrong"

[Wes Groleau]

But it is also possible, if another ground is missing or inadequate, for that pipe to be energized by a flaw in the device to be grounded.

I once worked on a TV for a while wondering why my butt was so itchy. Finally realized some idiot had wired the power cord in backward. The chassis was hot, and the insulation between me and the floor was not quite adequate.

[Wes Groleau]

That's not quite good enough. Depends on HOW you check it. If you check from right behind shower head to what you think ground and isn't, then there might still be potential between sower and drain.

But you could detect no potential between shower and drain because drain pipes are likely partly plastic. Yet if enough non-distilled water is flowing, that can make the metal part at the end become a ground.

Second best way to check for something hot if you're not sure of the return path is one of those things that work by proximity. Unfortunately, many of those are tricky to adjust and can give false Hot or false Not judgments if you don't know how to work them.

Best is to follow the advice already posted often: Call a pro.

[clare]

The EASIEST way to test for a live chassis, or a live wire, is a neon tester. It will light with only a "capacitive ground" and draws so little current it is impossible to get a shock from.

[clare]

Please explain how a bad neutral is going to make the ground float. I'm real curious how you are going to explain that. Not saying it's impossible - but please enlighten us. Or are you saying an open neutral between the panel and the street??

[trader4]

I wouldn't recommend any of those procedures for the OP and his problem. For one thing, who knows if this is a stable condition, ie that the voltage is always present, always the same, etc. If he has a faulty piece of equipment, a partial short, etc, it could be energized sometimes and not at others. It could show no voltage when tested and then 120V could be there when he takes his shower.

[trader4]

I agree it's not obvious what he meant. But when you tell s novice who is having a problem to go look for something and if you find it, it's "no longer code", what do you think they might infer? Seems reasonable to me that they would infer that it needs to be corrected and that it has something to do with his shock problem.

And then the statement itself that it's no longer code is wrong, unless you think a wire going from the panel to a metal cold water pipe is a code violation. A metal water service line can serve as one of the grounding electrodes and the metal water system of the house has to be bonded to the panel. So, seeing a wire connection from the panel to a water pipe is permissible under current code.

It is also currently code compliant to ground an incoming CATV, phone wire, etc to a water pipe provided it's within 5 ft of where it enters the building.

[Nate Nagel]

That would explain it, but one would expect other problems as well were that the case.

nate

[gregz]

In my old house, the box was near a water pipe. That's were ground was attached. New box had ground wire going all the way to the water inlet before meter. The water pipe might have provided a better ground, but that's not code. Extra ground rods were also installed.

Greg

[Gordon Shumway]

Hey, Fred!

Are you still with us? You got half of the group ready to beat the crap out of each other because of your question and we still don't know if you got electrocuted or not.

Now is not the time to see if Obamacare works.

[WW]

Please explain how a bad neutral is going to make the ground float. I'm real curious how you are going to explain that. Not saying it's impossible - but please enlighten us. Or are you saying an open neutral between the panel and the street??

My son had an open neutral from the overhead power line. I was helping him do some remodeling and happened to get a shock from the incoming water line. This is a very old house. In this case running a drill or saw would cause in lights to brighten or dim when on opposite phase. This is a 3 wire from transformer. Power company found a burnt up neutral connection at the meter. They repaired that and problem solved. WW

[bud--]

"Can"? If there is a metal water service pipe (10 ft...) it is *required* to be used as an earthing electrode.

For over 50 years you needed a "supplemental" electrode if the water service pipe might be replaced with plastic. More recently you need a "supplemental" electrode in any case.

Nonsense. If you have a plastic water service, interior metal water piping must be "bonded" to the electrical ground.

If there is a metal water service (10ft...) it is *required* to be connected as an earthing electrode.

Wrong again. Earthing electrodes form a system. A metal municipal water system will have a lower resistance to earth than any other electrode available at a house. Ground rods are close to a joke. In new construction with a concrete footing or foundation a "concrete encased electrode" must be created. It is a good electrode (and ground rods are not required).

For quite a while entry protectors, if they are connected to the water pipe (metal water service) must be connected within 5 ft of the entry to the house. The earthing electrode connection must be connected in the same 5 feet. (and of course, bonded water meter.)

Wrong still, twice.

I don't have a clue what the OP has.

[clare]

And the OP didn't experience (or report) any other issues.Which is why I asked Stormy to explain

[bud--]

My house has only a metal water service pipe as an earthing electrode. It was code when installed. As far as the NEC is concerned it is compliant today. If I replace the service it won't be compliant.