Shocked!

True, but if the piping were grounded then B) would be true, *except* in the instance where it is a neutral wire in an appliance that is connected to the water piping system not a hot, in which case unplugging the appliance would "fix" the problem (and it'd be easy to guess which appliance it is, as the issue would only show up when the appliance was being used.)

nate

Reply to
Nate Nagel
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He did not say /ungrounded/ he said grounded to water line

Reply to
philo 

Good observation. I think what we're seeing is that when he's in contact with metal touching the supply lines and touching something that might be connected to the drain he's getting a shock.

It's far more likely the supply lines have been repaired and are no longer in good contact with the ground than the drain lines got interrupted somehow. Touching the J trap under the sink with your body while turning the shut-off valve could present a live-to-ground circuit through Fred with just enough current to tingle.

However, touching a metal shower handle or arm while one's feet are in contact with the floor drain will pass current through the OP, too. For as long as it takes for him to fall down dead.

)-:

Good idea. I would even check for current AFTER I turned off the main breaker because we still don't know where the current is coming from.

Amen.

There are SO MANY potential causes that it's really best to be safe, not sorry. I would call the power company about this just to make sure that the neighbors are safe.

Reply to
Robert Green

It's clear why grounding to water pipes isn't the great idea it used to be even though in many old houses (like mine) you'll still find plenty of clamps attached to supply lines. The mains could be PVC, repairs in the house, even if it has copper plumbing could be plastic, etc.

Undertrained, underpaid cable jockeys find it's a hell of lot easier to ground a CATV line to a nearby water pipe than it is to run a cable to the circuit box where you can attach to a proper grounded conductor. A defect in the attached equipment can then energize the section of isolated pipe without tripping a breaker, which might be what's happening here.

Reply to
Robert Green

And again, who says that your circuit box (panel)can't be grounded to the water pipe? In fact, it's a code requirement that if a metal water pipe enters the house that the panel be grounded in part to that metal pipe.

And in older homes, not unusual to see the cable or phone system wires being grounded to a cold water pipe near where they enter the building. It's not a safety issue or something that needs to be corrected.

And it's all pointless anyway, because the OP clearly doesn't have the skills to figure out what is or isn't the problem anyway.

Reply to
trader4

Thanks, Philo, for pointing out what I actually said rather than what a very angry Trader *claims* I said. This is precisely why it's mostly useless to argue with him since he'll stuff words in your mouth and then berate you for saying something you never said.

It's too bad, too, because when he's not enslaved to his own anger, he's a fairly astute diagnostician. That's the only reason I haven't yet plonked him. He occasionally offers some valuable insights. If only he could learn to control his anger . . .

Reply to
Robert Green

Not exactly. It useta be the case that a copper or steel water service could be used as the grounding means for an electrical panel. Today, it functionally can work that way, but it is not code compliant to rely on the water service for the ground. However, you are still required to

*bond* the panel ground bus to the water service, assuming that it's metal. So it still looks the same, but the reasoning behind that identical connection is very different.

A new construction house would require an additional ground wire at the electrical panel and that would go outside and be connected to a network of several ground rods driven into the ground, *that* being the primary means of grounding.

The phone, CATV, etc. *should* be grounded back to the electrical panel, although functionally if they are connected to the water service, and that in turn is bonded to the panel, which is connected to a network of ground rods, that will in effect be a more roundabout way of accomplishing the same thing.

Agreed, but like I said above, current code does not recognize a metal water service as being a grounding means anymore but as something that needs to be bonded to an accepted ground.

It would appear from the OP's message that his house is one of those special cases that illustrates just *why* this change in code was made; clearly he does not have a modern code compliant grounding network and/or the water pipes inside the house are not bonded to same, and the water service is not providing a good ground either because a jumper over an insulating element like a meter is missing/corroded or a metal service has been replaced by ABS or some nonconductive material.

We can always learn. But this is one of those things that needs to be approached with caution...

nate

Reply to
Nate Nagel

DEFINITELY if there is voltage present on a metal water pipe or faucet with the main breaker turned off the power company needs to be notified IMMEDIATELY as that would imply that the problem is either with an unfused service entrance conductor touching a water pipe (VERY VERY DANGEROUS) or another problem completely outside the house, which is going to likely be not OP's problem but the power company's problem.

If that is the case, taking a shower is right out of the question, and the issue needs to be addressed immediately.

nate

Reply to
Nate Nagel

Yep, that's one problem with human nature and Usenet.

Two people who probably agree on something making a simple mis-interpretation then going ballistic with anger.

At any rate, this issue is something the OP should in no way be fooling with. The worst advice was given by the guy who said ...try this and then see if you still get a shock.

Also: Once the problem is fixed, the suggestion to install ground fault outlets in laundry, bathroom and kitchen areas...is a good suggestion.

Reply to
philo 

You're on an idiot roll this morning, aren't you Trader?

AND THEY MIGHT JUST SAVE HIS LIFE IF IT HAPPENS AGAIN.

Obviously that's too hard for your tiny little pea brain to comprehend. Fortunately the folks that write the NEC get it and that's why GFCI's are required by code. Jeez, when you get a hair up your fat, ugly ass, you sure do lose IQ points. I'm more than happy to help you show how your temper betrays your intellect.

No one ever said that they didn't. Read my several posts on his need to get a qualified electrician in to fix the problem and you'll see you just made a fool of yourself tripping over your own anger. Again. Don't you get tired of making yourself look stupid AND petty?

If you re-read what I wrote s*l*o*w*l*y this time, you'll see I said the electrician might ALSO recommend adding GFCIs. The implication is that after he finds and fixes the current problem, he'll do something to make sure if it ever happens again, the circuit will be protected and he won't be shocked in any way.

I guess that's just too much for you to understand Trader. No wonder you can't understand what Bud was trying to explain about the ACA. You have some serious mental blockages. Try taking a TSP brain enema to clear them. (-: Education and patient explanations don't seem to work.

Why do you insist on making yourself look foolish? You actually have a rather keen diagnostic mind when you don't let your emotions or your politics make an idiot out of you. Such a tragedy.

Reply to
Robert Green

It's called being polite, something you obviously don't know very much about. Apparently Usenet posting isn't something you know much about either, seeing you never appear to trim a post when adding only a *single* new (and often pointless) thought like today's.

In addition, you appear to use an inept "newsreader" (being polite again) that

adds

extra

lines

to

each

post

for

no

apparent

reason.

That makes your pointless, untrimmed and often personally abusive posts two or three times as long as they have to be. You're apparently not even self-aware enough to notice how crappy your posts look. I can only imagine the lack of attention to detail that goes into your home repair projects if you think your posting style is acceptable.

Those faults are in addition to your constant need to go off-topic with nearly every post you can to satisfy your need to inject your own vitriolic personal political agenda into home-repair threads. Just like just like you did with the fence thread, turning it a shot at Obamacare. So really, Trader, WTF good *are* you? We know you're a very unhappy person and the world is not to your liking or approval. You don't have to keep reminding us because most of us know but we don't really care.

Reply to
Robert Green

It's not code compliant for the water service pipe to be the

*only* grounding electrode, but it is code compliant for the water service pipe to be used as one of the grounding electrodes.

However, you are still required to

No it's not, because per code the water pipe may serve as a grounding electrode. It's not just a bonding issue.

I don't believe NEC distinguishes and calls any one method the primary ground. And there are other and better methods of grounding in new constructions, Ufer being an example. They do require that a water pipe can't be the only grounding electrode.

Agree, in new installs today they usually bring everything in where the electrical panel is and ground everything there. And that is the best way.

But Robert was telling the guy if he has a phone, CATV, etc grounded to a water pipe that it's not code compliant. The OP has an old house and if was done that way, then what he has is still perfectly fine. There are millions of houses out there with CATV, phone, etc grounded that way. There is nothing in today's code that says he has to change it, etc. Sending the OP who doesn't have much in the way of electrical skills on a wild goose chase based on incorrect info isn't productive.

Not true. Check the NEC.

Reply to
trader4

What exactly is the purpose of that process? He looks around, he sees that the cable tv service has a ground wire that runs over to a cold water pipe? What exactly is wrong with that? It's perfectly normal to see that. It exists in millions of houses. Yet, you're apparently suggesting that it has something to do with his problem and that it's a code violation.

He sees a ground wire running from his "circuit box" over to a cold water service pipe. What exactly is wrong with that? Where does NEC say that is not allowed? What does that or anything else you posted above have to do with his problem?

His problems as others have stated are:

A - Somehow at least part of his water system is getting energized.

B - That part of the water system is not properly grounded.

If only you knew what you're talking about instead of sending people off on wild goose chases.

Reply to
trader4

Again, it's perfectly normal to see CATV, phone grounded to a cold water line. There is nothing wrong with it, it doesn't have to be changed and it has nothing to do with the OP's problem.

And again, it's perfectly normal to see the electrical panel grounded to the cold water line. It's not a code violation. Good grief.

Reply to
trader4

It wasn't a misinterpretation of anything. And before agreeing with Robert that a CATV, phone line, electrical panel, with a ground connection to the water supply line is something that is wrong, not code compliant, something the OP should look for, suggesting any of that is the cause of his shock, you might want to check your facts.

Reply to
trader4

You're making the big assumption that a hot that is somehow connecting to the piping system is in fact a dead short. That would trip a regular breaker by exceeding the current. But more typical is that it's not a dead short from a hot, but some partial short, ie some leakage current getting onto it. If it was a direct connection from hot the OP would likely be on his ass or dead.

Reply to
trader4

*If* you have a 10' long or longer metal underground water service, it must be part of the grounding electrode system. However, you *must* provide supplemental grounding in that case, and that has been the case for quite a while. However, there are plenty of houses out there where the ground/neutral bus in the main panel is bonded to the water piping where it enters the house, and to no other supplemental ground, as that was accepted practice in the 1970s and earlier. Those would have been code compliant when built, but would not be code compliant today.

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Reply to
Nate Nagel

I agree. And I'm sure you agree that "not code compliant today" doesn't mean that those older systems are now unsafe, have to be upgraded, etc. As long as you're not replacing them, etc, they can stay that way.

My main point was that Robert suggested that the OP go look for anything like a CATV, Phone, electric panel, etc that has a ground wire attached to the water service and that it's no longer code. I believe we agree that to have the panel grounded to the water service is part of the current code, so that part of what was posted is 100% wrong.

And it's not unusual to find CATV, phone etc grounded to a cold water pipe at various points where they come in to an older house. That's how it was done in years gone by. Even today you can do it as long as it's within 5 ft of where the water service enters the house.

I had visions of the OP finding his CATV grounded to a cold water pipe, or the panel connected to the incoming water service and saying "Oh, there's the source of my shocks or there's something that's wrong that needs to be fixed because it's not code, etc".

Robert has since stated that he meant that the OP should go find those ground points so that he can tell the electrician where they are. Had he said that to begin with, I would not have disagreed.

An even more direct idea would be to map out the portion of the water system that is energized, follow it as much as possible, see if anything is connected to THAT portion. And see if that portion is seperated by some plastic piping etc from the rest of the water system. If he finds it has a PVC section separating it from the rest of the metal piping, then the search can proceed for what's energizing that section.

Reply to
trader4

Agreed. I would, however, were it my house, consider adding some supplemental ground rods if it was convenient to do so, just for peace of mind. I probably wouldn't bother to rework any grounds to water pipe however unless I had a good reason to do so. Also, would consider adding GFCI receps definitely in the bathrooms if the house is old enough to have dodged that requirement, additionally for clothes washer etc. just for extra safety.

I'd say priority one is figuring out *what* is energizing the pipe; can be done by unplugging equipment and/or turning off breakers. And the most important point, if turning off the main breaker does not make the issue go away, call in the pros and the power company TDS.

nate

Reply to
Nate Nagel

When I installed my new water softener I had to connect a bonding wire between the inlet and outlet of the softener too - it was in the instructions - because the softener meter-head is composite instead of brass.

The water heater has anti-dialectric bushings too - so a jumper across the water heater maintains ground continuity there as well.

Reply to
clare

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