I can't remember the source, but I've heard many times that if Canadians
want real medical care (like heart surgery) they come to the USA. And if
Americans want care, they go to Mexico.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
On 8/16/2013 7:30 AM, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
Christopher Young, while improperly top-posting, wrote:
There are thousands of medical procedures done in Canada every day.
There is no way that the US health-care system could perform even a
fraction of those on a daily basis starting today and continuing
My dad had off-pump beating-heart bypass surgery 11 years ago in the
university hospital in the city where I live. That same hospital was
one of the first to perform cardiac robotic surgery in the world.
So go take your idiotic, patriot-fueled ideas about Canadian health-care
and shove them straight back into your ass where they belong.
One of the better features of Canadian healthcare is their system for
handling medical malpractice. So, one has to wait six months for a hip
or knee replacement? Lose weight and exercise to get in shape for it.
Probably took 50-60 years to wear out the first one :o)
Punative dammage awards are capped - if they even exist at all up here.
Pain and suffering awards don't run into the millions like they do in
the US. Doesn't matter if we're talking about medical matters or other
stuff (product liability, etc).
Your legal system is killing your obstetrics and gynecological
professions, making those doctors harder to come by.
Many hip replacements are done on an emergency basis. Old person falls,
breaks hip, must be seen and fixed within 24 hours. Our system can
Elective knee and hip surgery is a moving target. Many people
technically need them, few WANT to undergo the surgery, they put up with
the pain and/or reduced mobility, so when they're scheduled for it they
really don't care what the wait-time is.
The few that make noises about getting it done sooner (younger, more
active, etc) get moved up the list and are seen in a reasonable time
I have American relatives by marriage who have lived and worked in
Canada. The older one and his wife recently retired to the USA but made
sure to become Canadian citizens before doing so, so that if faced with
high-cost medical treatment in the USA they can always return to Canada
for low-cost or even free treatment.
The younger one laments the high cost of health insurance in the USA and
reminds us of the paltry cost of her pregnancies and deliveries in
Canada -- not to mention the paid pregnancy and maternity leave.
A while back I saw a TV program about Americans going to Thailand for
surgery by US-trained surgeons for a small fraction of US costs.
On 08/16/13 07:40 am, Stormin Mormon wrote:
“As if govt is soooo efficient and economical. If it is, why are
we getting crushed to death here in NJ with some of the highest
property taxes in the country? Why is California, which is closest
to socialist Europe, almost bankrupt? “
Because all the tax money in those states is going to fund the lazy incompe
tent government union workers’ fat pensions and completely free health ca
re and I don’t mean the police and fire workers who actually work.
“And why is it that the free market system can deliver a hamburger,
an automobile or auto insurance at reasonable prices?”
Stuff that nobody really needs or want or gets screwed by. If you’re too
incompetent to cook your own hamburger then you shouldn’t be allowed to l
The automobiles are designed for idiot gadget junkies. They’re full of BS
stuff that has nothing to do with getting from one place to another but wi
ll cost you thousands of dollars to have repaired so the companies can at l
ast make the profit that they didn’t make when they sold the vehicle.
As soon as there is an accident the first thing that the insurance company
lawyers try to do is to see where they can find a loophole in which fine pr
int so that they don’t have to pay. People only think they have insurance
. In reality the only thing the insurance card is good for is so you can re
new your registration and not get a citation.
“Then housing should be a non-profit public good too. So should food.
How about clothing? Then we have some examples of things that are
run by the govt that aren't doing their job.”
Housing, food and clothing are not exigencies like health care. Not having
them isn’t like being bitten by a snake, rushed to the hospital and getti
ng a bill for $55,000 because they can and your only choices are to pay or
“Where does the USA
public schools rank today in terms of educating our children?”
U.S. public schools are a complete failure due to the teachers unions being
given anything they want by the politicians.
“Obamacare was providing insurance to what, 30mil people? So, to
fix a "problem" for 10% of the population, you don't care what
happens to the other 90%?”
That so called 90% was either at some point in the 10%, is in the 10% but w
on’t know it until his policy is cancelled due to some loop-hole or will
be in the 10% when they get laid-off because the CEO has stolen all the com
pany money and went to Bermuda on his yacht.
“Also, witness that this recovery is unique in that most of the jobs
being created are part-time. Why do you think that is?”
There are several reasons for that:
1. Failure of the public school system and society in general to emphasize
2. The U.S. government kissing Chinese dumplings.
3. Tax breaks for companies that outsource.
4. Not holding CEOs accountable to making a profit for their companies inst
ead of themselves.
On Friday, August 16, 2013 11:14:46 AM UTC-4, email@example.com wrote:
petent government union workers’ fat pensions and completely free health
care and I don’t mean the police and fire workers who actually work.
Yes, that's a big part of it and precisely my point.
Good grief. Nobody needs a car, car insurance, or food? The
point went right over your head. The price of all kinds of goods
and services in a free market economy is at a reasonable level.
We need to understand why those same free market forces are
not working in healthcare.
If you’re too incompetent to cook your own hamburger then you shouldn’
t be allowed to live.
BS stuff that has nothing to do with getting from one place to another but
will cost you thousands of dollars to have repaired so the companies can at
last make the profit that they didn’t make when they sold the vehicle.
y lawyers try to do is to see where they can find a loophole in which fine
print so that they don’t have to pay. People only think they have insuran
ce. In reality the only thing the insurance card is good for is so you can
renew your registration and not get a citation.
g them isn’t like being bitten by a snake, rushed to the hospital and get
ting a bill for $55,000 because they can and your only choices are to pay o
Total nonsense. Food, housing and clothing are every bit as
necessary as healthcare. And the being bitten by a snake and
having some critical urgent need is but one small part of the
overall cost of healthcare.
ng given anything they want by the politicians.
won’t know it until his policy is cancelled due to some loop-hole or wil
l be in the 10% when they get laid-off because the CEO has stolen all the c
ompany money and went to Bermuda on his yacht.
stead of themselves.
Sure dream on. And the fact that they can avoid providing
health insurance mandated by Obamacare isn't the big factor?
All the things you listed, not that I agree with them, have
been around for decades. Yet, only now are we having a weak
recovery with part time jobs.
On Fri, 16 Aug 2013 09:23:48 -0700 (PDT), " firstname.lastname@example.org"
It's no mystery. It's because third party pays, either insurance of
teh gvt. So no one cares what it costs. Look at the difference
between what a vet charges (and makes) and a doctor. The level of
skill is similar, being a vet is probably harder although at least
your patients can't complain and are very unlikely to sue you. But
with veterinary care the owner pays directly, very few have pet
insurance, so the owners CARE what it's going to cost to treat their
animal. If the day comes when enough pet owners buy pet-vet insurance
then the third party pays scheme will cause vet care to go thru the
ceiling and poor folks who can't afford pet-vet insurance will not be
able to afford to have their pets treated. I already have seen huge
increases in what vet care costs over the past decade and more and
more see them pushing for pet-vet insurance.
You don't even need to go that far. Look at the difference in price
(and in inflation) between what a plastic surgeon gets when the person
pays for it and when it is covered by insurance. Fascinating look.
America is at that awkward stage. It's too late
to work within the system, but too early to shoot
On Saturday, August 17, 2013 5:16:18 AM UTC-4, Ashton Crusher wrote:
competent government union workers fat pensions and completely free heal
th care and I dont mean the police and fire workers who actually work.
According to economics 101, it matters as much as the cost
of anything else to the third party that is paying it,
provided of course that the third party is a private, for profit
company. I gave auto insurance as an example. We have
a competitive market there, and the rates, for the most part,
are not exorbitant or rising out of control year after year.
Same thing with home insurance policies. Both of those are
third party payer systems that are working well in the free
market. The auto insurance one even has some of the same
problems with exorbitant lawsuits that healthcare does.
Look at the difference
The level of
I think taking a look at what the differences are with vets would
be an excellent idea. I've said for many years that what we need is
an independent commission, with some people from the healthcare
industry, but mostly people like Jack Welch and Andy Grove, to
figure out why free market forces aren't working in healthcare.
But I'm not buying that in the case of vets, the cost of treatment
is entirely due to consumers paying directly. I agree, that can
be part of it. But there are other major differences. Many of
the expensive procedures for humans, eg bypass, organ transplants,
aren't available for pets. And the vet hospital isn't treating a
bunch of illegal alien dogs in the ER for free.
The third party cares. Whether due to greed, concern for the patient,
or what, all of them try to keep costs down. Some do it by vigilance to
prevent docs from the sort of abuse you describe. Others do it by
ignorant denial of needed services. And the government does it by flat
out paying peanuts.
In any formula, constants (especially those obtained
As a serious answer:
I thought about how well I live. As a life-long computer programmer, I
don't think I make an extraordinary amount but I live in a nice house in
Berkeley Heights and work in NJ. BH just recently made the list of the
top 6 number of places to live.
So, one wage earner, 40 hour week, nice home, all the food I want.
How could I complain about "crushing" taxes?
I am sorry, but to me this essentially boils down to I want to tax
people based on what does or does not offend me personally. While I
understand the sentiment, this is a lousy way to make tax policy. If I
misunderstood, please feel free to correct me (seriously).
America is at that awkward stage. It's too late
to work within the system, but too early to shoot
Still serious? Okay. :)
In our town they set the tax rate in order to avoid a deficit.
They aren't allowed a deficit and they aren't allowed to make large
increases. It's a constant battle between providing services, good
schools and holding the tax line.
This year they canceled spring bulk cleanup due to budget constraints.
I don't see any tax "policy" issue, they have certain constraints and
certain expenditures they feel they must make.
But my comment was about "crushing" taxes.
I'm not a doctor, lawyer, CEO, or even executive.
Yet I can live in one of NJ's nicest towns.
I'm far from being crushed.
Sure taxes are higher than they are in the boondocks of Pennsylvania
(I guess), but we make more too. I'm finding it entirely affordable.
On Friday, August 16, 2013 6:08:10 PM UTC-4, net cop wrote:
. If it is, why are
Tell us what your property tax bill is. Then tell us
about how a senior citizen living on social security
might feel about that bill. I'm sure a lot of folks
here will get a good laugh at that, because their's
is probably less than half that for a similar house.
First you have the
feds taking 25 to 35% of what we make. Then the state
comes along and takes another 5 to 9%. Then you have a
property tax bill of $10K. Buy a car or just about anything
else and they take 7%. And then when you buy something,
it costs more in NJ because, among other things, the
businesses are taxed and regulated to death. Buy or sell
a house, there is a transfer tax on the sale. Happen to
be luck enough to make a profit, well the state wants a
cut of that too. But then guys like you just think it's
all peachy keen and that's how the politicians keep getting
away with it. Oh, and the state is $50bil in debt, because
even with the high taxes, they're still pissing away more
than they take in.
Some good examples of that are our fine public servants.
They have a career of 20 years or so, retire at a fat, full
pension we pay for. The week after they retire, they show
up at another govt agency in another $100K a year job.
That is what is crushing us.
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