OT: Health insurance

My poor lil feelings are hurt that nobody followed up on my post (in earlie r car insurance thread which quickly became a classic example of thread dri ft).

There were many personal anecdotes of experiences with the health care syst em, military and civilian, but nobody really addressed the topic of medical care which in the U.S. is commodified as an "industry" rather than a publi c good.

Here goes:

"When I was living in Europe, a member of my family was treated, long-term, for a very serious condition, without a penny of cost, even though neither of us was a national of that country.

Allow me to reiterate that physicians in many developed countries -- I only know specifically about European countries, so am extrapolationg -- comple te their medical studies at government expense.

No sky-high tuition bills from for-profit universities. No crushing debt l oad for the first 15-20 years of practice. No wild divergence in physician

-hospital fees between practitioners and institutions. No drive to special ize in big money practices like plastic surgery. In return,physician oblig ed to devote 'n' years to (more or less) government assigned practice, mean ing often working in under-served communities.

Sounds like a win-win to me. In those countries, health care is not consid ered an "industry" --I wince every time I hear that term --but a public goo d.

Those governments must have figured out that $1 spent on preventive health care and affordable care for existing conditions saves $100's of dollars do wn the line in social costs that we pay out of our other tax pocket."

The usual comments on this kind of suggestion lean heavily to "...they have to wait months/years for a procedure... whereas we in the US can get it fa st .

Yeah, sure, if you have insurance or can pay out of pocket. If not, you're basically fracked. Leaves out a large segment of the population

The public seems to have a very hard time understanding that if we don't em phasize preventive care*, and don't make medical care available to all, we pay for it ANYWAY in the form of social costs for damage done to and/or by impaired individuals who didn't get care in time.

*For just ONE example: In most "developed" countries, qualified profession als follow new mothers and babies in their homes for a period after the bir th to make sure there are no complications. In the U.S., where childbirth for a while was handled like a McDonald's drive-through until outrage force d some retrenchment, there were many cases of babies having to be rushed ba ck to the hospital because of undiagnosed post-natal problems. Enormous co st that could have been avoided by a much less expensive program as describ ed above.

(steps down from podium)

HB

Reply to
Higgs Boson
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The problem is many fold. The biggest issue is possbily a lost cause in the US. In the same way we will seemingly never rid ourselves of the legions of lawyers who just make life difficult for everyone we will probably never get rid of the idea that health care is just 'one more industry'. And as with any industry, it's all about profit. Another problem in the US is the idea that everyone, no matter how little they contribute TO society, is OWED free room and board, free food, and free medical care and not only free medical care, the BEST the world has to offer. Anytime someone suggests "rationing", as in, if you are paying the bare minimum for your health insurance you only get the bare minimum of care. Doesn't mean you get inept care, jsut means you go to a clinic, you get standard drugs, no high priced just came on the market might be the next best thing but we don't know yet drugs, means if you been smoking for 15 years and you get a bunch of diseases that will cost $450,000 to treat you are going to be out of luck because no, you don't "deserve" the same level of health coverage as the guy who's been working and paying for a GOOD policy. The people in the "socialist" countries already are getting "rationed" health care but they seemingly are OK with it because EVERYONE gets mediocre care, not just the poor.

Reply to
Ashton Crusher

Over half the people in the US are fat and lazy slugs in poor physical condition. They got that way because they eat McFat food.

No one in the health care industry forces them to eat McFat food, do they?

Reply to
McFat Food

No one forced you to have a McFat head, did they. Now go away and nym shift some more. ^_^

TDD

Reply to
The Daring Dufas

ier car insurance thread which quickly became a classic example of thread d rift).

stem, military and civilian, but nobody really addressed the topic of medic al care which in the U.S. is commodified as an "industry" rather than a pub lic good.

m, for a very serious condition, without a penny of cost, even though neith er of us was a national of that country.

ly know specifically about European countries, so am extrapolationg -- comp lete their medical studies at government expense.

load for the first 15-20 years of practice. No wild divergence in physici an-hospital fees between practitioners and institutions. No drive to speci alize in big money practices like plastic surgery. In return,physician obl iged to devote 'n' years to (more or less) government assigned practice, me aning often working in under-served communities.

As if govt is soooo efficient and economical. If it is, why are we getting crushed to death here in NJ with some of the highest property taxes in the country? Why is California, which is closest to socialist Europe, almost bankrupt?

And why is it that the free market system can deliver a hamburger, an automobile or auto insurance at reasonable prices?

idered an "industry" --I wince every time I hear that term --but a public g ood.

Then housing should be a non-profit public good too. So should food. How about clothing? Then we have some examples of things that are run by the govt that aren't doing their job. Where does the USA public schools rank today in terms of educating our children?

h care and affordable care for existing conditions saves $100's of dollars down the line in social costs that we pay out of our other tax pocket."

ve to wait months/years for a procedure... whereas we in the US can get it fast .

re basically fracked. Leaves out a large segment of the population

Obamacare was providing insurance to what, 30mil people? So, to fix a "problem" for 10% of the population, you don't care what happens to the other 90%?

emphasize preventive care*, and don't make medical care available to all, w e pay for it ANYWAY in the form of social costs for damage done to and/or b y impaired individuals who didn't get care in time.

Many of us understand it. It's just that we don't believe having the govt pass a 2500 page bill that no one even read, much less understood, in a rush, solves any of the real problems. Just one example is the lie that it was going to reduce healthcare costs and that if you had private insurance, it would not effect you at all. Healthcare costs are rising because of Obamacare and many people with private plans have been effected, either with large rate increases or companies dropping coverage. Also, witness that this recovery is unique in that most of the jobs being created are part-time. Why do you think that is?

Reply to
trader4

Maybe Michelle can force the fat slugs to get some exercise? She can call it something catchy like "lets move"?

. Christ>

Reply to
Stormin Mormon

I can't remember the source, but I've heard many times that if Canadians want real medical care (like heart surgery) they come to the USA. And if Americans want care, they go to Mexico.

. Christ>

Reply to
Stormin Mormon

BINGO!!!! You cannot turn on the TV without seeing a commercial from a law firm suggesting "You MAY be entitled to compensation." There is much that could be done to reduce the cost of medical care, but politicians and lawyers do not want them implemented.

BINGO again! Many people save nothing, then wonder why they are broke and cannot pay bills when something unexpected happens to them. Also, there are people who must buy the latest gadget whether they need it or not, or they piss away their earnings on drugs, booze, gambling, or other items that consume their potential savings. Duh!!!

What should have been an inspiring event (the election of a partially black president) has only encouraged those making bad decisions to feel they are victims. They ARE victims, but victims of their poor decisions, not victims of someone else.

Anytime someone suggests "rationing", as in,

Reply to
Ken

I have been saying since I get an interest in this topic in the mid-80s that the only thing keeping us from HC reform is that we as a society can't agree on the definition of "minimum healthcare". Is it seeing a GP? Is it cancer treatment (and if so at what time do we decide the person is beyond salvage and should just be made comfortable)? Does the

4-pack a day smoker get a new lung or the alchoholic a new liver? "No nation would be so dumb as to say that we all want to go one point, we just don't know how to get there. What we are finding is some want to go to San Diego, some to Seattle. We are ashamed to admit this so we pretend we all want to go to San Francisco."

Uwe Reinhardt on the health care debate.

Reply to
Kurt Ullman

Unlike most fat people, I think he was born with his condition.

Reply to
Kurt Ullman

There were many personal anecdotes of experiences with the health care system, military and civilian, but nobody really addressed the topic of medical care which in the U.S. is commodified as an "industry" rather than a public good.

Here goes:

"When I was living in Europe, a member of my family was treated, long-term, for a very serious condition, without a penny of cost, even though neither of us was a national of that country.

Allow me to reiterate that physicians in many developed countries -- I only know specifically about European countries, so am extrapolationg -- complete their medical studies at government expense.

No sky-high tuition bills from for-profit universities. No crushing debt load for the first 15-20 years of practice. No wild divergence in physician-hospital fees between practitioners and institutions. No drive to specialize in big money practices like plastic surgery. In return,physician obliged to devote 'n' years to (more or less) government assigned practice, meaning often working in under-served communities.

Sounds like a win-win to me. In those countries, health care is not considered an "industry" --I wince every time I hear that term --but a public good.

Those governments must have figured out that $1 spent on preventive health care and affordable care for existing conditions saves $100's of dollars down the line in social costs that we pay out of our other tax pocket."

The usual comments on this kind of suggestion lean heavily to "...they have to wait months/years for a procedure... whereas we in the US can get it fast .

Yeah, sure, if you have insurance or can pay out of pocket. If not, you're basically fracked. Leaves out a large segment of the population

The public seems to have a very hard time understanding that if we don't emphasize preventive care*, and don't make medical care available to all, we pay for it ANYWAY in the form of social costs for damage done to and/or by impaired individuals who didn't get care in time.

*For just ONE example: In most "developed" countries, qualified professionals follow new mothers and babies in their homes for a period after the birth to make sure there are no complications. In the U.S., where childbirth for a while was handled like a McDonald's drive-through until outrage forced some retrenchment, there were many cases of babies having to be rushed back to the hospital because of undiagnosed post-natal problems. Enormous cost that could have been avoided by a much less expensive program as described above.

(steps down from podium)

HB

It's probably not possible to have any kind of rational discussion on the subject right now although I know that the Chautauqua Institution (summer camp for adults) has courageously chosen the subject for discussion all of next week and they work hard to have useful "civil discussions" on their topics. See:

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There are summaries of the topics in the daily newspaper (free) at:
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if you are interested in what was said. I'm sure there are better ways to deliver health care to the U.S. population with less cost and better quality than we have now; but, sadly, few seem to know how to make that happen or want to get beyond the politics.

Tomsic

Reply to
Tomsic

And to think, the mouthpiece for the P.L.L.C.F calls me a troll. ^_^

TDD

Reply to
The Daring Dufas

It is a dangerous assumption to make that soc. med. is the same as rationing....I suppose it happens a lot, but healthcare sure as hell is rationed in the US. Here, you get healthcare when you can afford it, when you are much too poor to afford it, and when you are in dire need and show up in the ER.

Healthcare in the US sucks. There is no better descriptive word in my vocab. Been a nurse for a long time, my favorite field being labor/delivery until I lost my tolerance for unneeded C-sections and labor induction to fit someone's idea of convenience. New thought recently is a connection between labor induction and autism....but, the rising autism rate may be partly a factor of distorting diagnoses in order to qualify for special care and schooling.

There is NO INCENTIVE for docs, hospitals or anyone else to keep people HEALTHY. A visit to my doc is mostly an experience in selling a product than PRACTICING MEDICINE. Need something for "horrible" hot flashes? Get some hormones to take to ward off every natural function of your body and keep the doc and pharmacies in biz. Does the kid wet the bed at night? Get him into the hospital for a surgical procedure to find out that his bladder is working just as it is supposed to. Overweight, stuffing bacon burgers into your mouth, and getting out of breath if you move off the sofa? Get some arteries replaced, preferably with some veins from you legs. If you live long enough to grow some cataracts, get them replaced with plastic....a trained tech. could probably do the procedure assembly-line style like they do in Russia, but, then, an MD misses out on becoming a multi-millionaire and (of course) supporting the bottom-end of the economy with his wealth.

Working in healthcare and in insurance, I encountered far more people worried only about the amount left for them to pay than I did people concerned with whether their care was appropriate, of good quality or even what was done to them.

Reply to
Norminn

In theory, it is possible to have a rational discussion. However, that's not likely to happen in the USA. I've found that liberals operate on emotion,and conservatives operate on rational thinking. When a conservative asks what has worked overseas, or asks if such a plan has been tried before, he is met with overwhelming shouts of "starving children" and "dead babies" from he left.

I hope the camp has some kind of rational discussion. However, if they do, the politicians of the USA will drown them out with screams of dead babies and starving children.

. Christ>

Reply to
Stormin Mormon

One of the "Occupy WTF" kids was asked what form of government he supported and he replied that it was Communism. When he was told that Communism was a failure and it had collapsed in most places it was tried, his answer was "We can do it better." O_o

TDD

Reply to
The Daring Dufas

It is the same as rationing. But then the current system rations, too. That is what econ systems do, they ration things because you can't spend

100% of the money on everything. The real question (and another that is being studiously ignored by all in this debate) is who do you want to make those decisions and how do you want them to be made.
Reply to
Kurt Ullman

We're in this together. I've had at least a few people call me names.

. Christ> >>> No one forced you to have a McFat head, did they. Now go away and nym

Reply to
Stormin Mormon

There are thousands of medical procedures done in Canada every day. There is no way that the US health-care system could perform even a fraction of those on a daily basis starting today and continuing indefinately.

My dad had off-pump beating-heart bypass surgery 11 years ago in the university hospital in the city where I live. That same hospital was one of the first to perform cardiac robotic surgery in the world.

So go take your idiotic, patriot-fueled ideas about Canadian health-care and shove them straight back into your ass where they belong.

Reply to
Home Guy

I often get called the "N" word. Ya know .....Nazi. O_o

TDD

Reply to
The Daring Dufas

Oh my God! Someone got up Homo Gay's ass. ^_^

TDD

Reply to
The Daring Dufas

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