Modern locks are a pest

[Rod Speed]

You never could bullshit your way out of a wet paper bag.

And you never had a case, just more of your bullshit.

[Commander Kinsey]

Works for my house. Can't lock myself out like those stupid Yale locks, and I don't have to use the handle to lock the door.

[Rod Speed]

Because there is nothing in it worth stealing.

Cant lock myself out of mine either.

I don't have to either.

[Xeno]

That was a very common feeling back in those days. So what?

Not only sequentially but the optional gizmos which were standard on luxury marques slowly filtered through to the poverty pack cars.

A very recent standard fitment. It wasn't standard on my 2010 Corolla. It was a defacto standard by then, however, as they weren't selling them without AC. It was definitely an option on my 2002 Corolla though.

Power steering was *optional* in the 60s and the 70s but by the 80s there was change in the air, especially as cars mover to FWD and with (critically) much wider tyres. The early FWDs were never even optioned with power steering. Toss in more powerful engines and wider tyres and the need for standard fitment of power steering became apparent. My 1275 GT mini with wide tyres and no power steering was the perfect example of how bad torque steer could get.

[Rod Speed]

Bullshit it was on the silly line about the next war with Japan.

So I clearly remember the 60s a hell of a lot better than you do.

That's bullshit and it wasn't only those two accessorys that were standard in jap cars and not in the no jap cars.

Fuck all was at that time.

And the beetle always had the heater standard here. And didn't even have a petrol gauge, standard or optional either for a while.

The japs never had poverty pack cars here.

BULLSHIT.

It was on my 2006 Getz.

That's not very recent, stupid.

Bullshit it was ever a buyer selectable option on most fwds.

What I said.

My 73 Golf proves that it isnt necessary.

[Xeno]

<snip>

Yes, and it was common.

I can see you weren't buying luxury cars like the BMWs

The Beetle had the heater designed into the *exhaust system*. It was always like that from the very beginning because euro winters are harsh and a rear mounted engine provides no general warmth around the firewall area.

Datsun Bluebird 1964. Poverty pack in every sense of the word - but it came standard with a heater.

Koreans doing what the Japanese did in the 60s. ;-)

10 years ago is *recent*.

It was *optional* on RWD cars. There weren't many powerhouse FWDs in the

70s to worry much about torque steer. That came later. The Mini Cooper S/Clubman GT did have lots of power with tiny wheels so it was an issue with them.

73 Golfs are not equipped with copious amounts of *power*. The Golf diesels are even worse though they have torque aplenty.

[Rod Speed]

Bullshit it was.

You are wrong. as always.

Irrelevant to the fact that it was standard, not optional.

And the Golf always had the heater as standard and it wasn't for the reason you listed.

BULLSHIT.

And that wasn't the only extra that was standard and optional on the locally manufactured shit.

Wrong as always with your stupid claim that what was optional in the local shit at the time was standard incrementally over time.

Bullshit it is with cars. And isnt 10 years either.

On f*ck all of those.

You didn't say power house and plenty of very ordinary power fwds had power steering then anyway.

Pity about all the other fwds with power steering which didn't.

Neither were countless fwds that had power steering.

[Xeno]

As I said, it was still an *option* on my 2010 Corolla. That was exactly

10 years ago.

In the 70s it was optional on the majority of Aussie cars that offered it. In the 60s it was a rarity.

Power is the primary factor that influences torque steer. No torque, no torque steer. Powerful engines have a lot more torque.

Steering and suspension design plays a role in how torque steer is dealt with. As always there are compromises and different designers deal with issues in different ways, often dictated by *cost*. The problem with low powered front wheel drive cars is that they are aimed at the economy end of the market.

Maybe not but their steering design required it.

[Clare Snyder]

My 1953 California sold Coronet didn't have a heater, nor did my 1928 Chevrolet - and the "heater" on a VW was pretty much a myth - while the gas heater WAS an option.

It was on America's first mass produced "common man's car" the Chevy Citation (X-Car) 1979 1/2 (sold as "the first car of the eighties")

Like I said - it was on the Chevy Citation

ANd the '73 Golf is almost an "antique" - not what you would call a "recent" vehicle.

[Clare Snyder]

With "negative scrub Radius" geometry on a light car power steering is only a luxury

[Xeno]

It was never produced or sold on this side.

FWDs were around for a long time before 1979. I, for instance owned a

1962 mini (FWD), a Morris 1100S (1967) a Morris 1500 OHC (1969). Power steering was not even an option. That was just from one marque. Fiat had the 127 and 128 FWD models and, again, power steering was also not even an option. Plenty of other choices of FWD in the era before 1979 that were sans power steering even as an option.

Your example comes from nearly 2 decades after the FWD mini was produced and they had issues with it.

[Clare Snyder]

I had a '75 Fiat 128 coupe and a '67 Peugeot 204. The Citreon TA predated them all significantly (as did the American Cord and the old Miller race cars) and the dinky stinky DKW and the just as stinky early SAAB 2 strokers

Torque steer was an issue even on the lowly 850

[Rod Speed]

In fact it was by far the most important one.

Oh bullshit.

Because that is what sold best at that end of the market.

That's wrong too with BMW.

Pity about this shit of yours

Can't even manage a consistent line in pig ignorant shit.

[Xeno]

Yes, had never heard of it so had to resort to Google. ;-)

Looks like they were trying to follow trends and were a tad hasty in the development.

My mother had, in order, a 73 128 2 Dr sedan, a 75 128 4 Dr and lastly a

77 128 3P. The first and second were 1100s, the 3P was a 1300, none were powerhouses, none badly affected by torque steer except on loose surfaces where they would dart from side to side a little. The steering was very well designed on those.

My 62 Mini was an 850 and torque steer wasn't an issue with that. The The 1275 GT, on the other hand, was a brute to keep in a straight line under WOT. The 850 would just get to 70mph in a fair wind.

[Clare Snyder]

My 850 got squirrely in loose gravel and snowy roads, but just stepping on the gas made it go one way, and backing off made it go the other ( if it didn't jump out of gear because of the heavy T handle I had on the end of that LONG shift lever --_) The 1275 Stage 3 Moke we had at the college was a different story - -

-

[Xeno]

Yep, classic torque steer. You can now get equal length drive shaft kits for early minis to negate that issue.

Yep, the 1275 was a damn fine engine.

[Commander Kinsey]

A standard mortice lock lasts for decades with no maintainance.

[Commander Kinsey]

Or just live in a nicer place. I can leave my doors wide open for a month and I won't get anything stolen.

Glaziers are thick as f*ck and fit them backwards in 50% of case. The seal is supposed to be on the inside!

[Jim Joyce]

Where does the Pontiac Toronado fit into this? Wiki says it was the first US-produced FWD car since the Cord 810 in 1937.

When I was in high school, a friend's dad had a '69 Toronado. I never drove it so I can't say whether torque steer was an issue, but it rode very similar to my mom's '69 Cadillac Sedan deVille. Very quiet, very smooth.

[Rod Speed]

Wrong, as always.