Just mounted & static balanced my 30th tire in about five years - saving over $400

I've considered a lot of hobbies to amuse myself while I ride this dirt ball around the Sun but I must admit that tire wrestling is not one of them.  But hey, if it blows your skirt up, knock yourself out.

Whatever works for you. n the past 15 years I paid to have 8 tires changed. No payback for me.

The mounting and ballancing on my Haks was free - cost me the same mounted and ballanced as "cash and carry" - and repairs are free for the life of the tire. I changed enough tires in my working years that I don't need to do it as a hobby - and particularly with s***ty equipment. As for balancing, a static balance uis betterthan none, but a 1/4 oz resolution on a dynamic balance is pretty much a requirement for me at highway speeds. I want my tires running SMOOTH AS SILK - not just balanced well enough to keep them from shaking the hubcaps off.

Hi trader_4,

Usenet is a shared information source, sort of like a Potluck Picnic, where each person tries to bring something of value to all to the picnic table.

Hence, every post is designed to add value for everyone, so I THANK YOU for that purposefully helpful and very useful information about the Costco setup.

The Costco near me _used_ to refuse to mount non-Costco tires, so I was surprised that you said yours mounts non-Costco tires.

Armed with your purposefully helpful information, I called the local Costco at (831)469-0961 x5 (other), x4 (auto), who confirmed EXACTLY what you just said!

This is great news, where I'll contribute this to the Potluck Picnic: o $60 to mount four tires on four wheels (on or off the vehicle) o $20 to dynamically balance four wheels (if they are off the vehicle) o $22 to dynamically balance four wheels (if they are on the vehicle) o $11 to repair a tire o $1 to dispose of old tires (the guy said that's what they get charged)

In addition: o They won't let you ship tires to them; but you can bring them in. o They won't mount tires older than 3 years (based on the date stamp) o They will rotate & balance tires that are older than 3 years though o You don¢t get the Costco-tire free lifetime balance & rotation though o They will not touch tires below the 2/32" wear bars for any purpose

When I asked the Costco guy _when_ this started, the guy said they used to work on non-Costco tires years ago, and then stopped, and now started it up only about two years ago.

Just to be clear, and to ensure we're always adding value to the potluck picnic that is Usenet, the empirical dynamic balance test is free, and extremely easily done "at home".

You just drive the car at highway speeds. o If you can't feel vibration, it's dynamically balanced (AFAIK).

Besides, with this new information you've kindly brought to the Potluck Picnic which is Usenet, for $20 in toto, we can _check_ how well we statically balanced the four wheels.

This is _great_ news you brought up that Costco does this for us! o Thanks for bringing value for all in the Potluck Picnic that is Usenet

Hi trader, I agree with you on your facts of the Costco prices, and on most of your logic (adults are funny in that facts are easy to agree on, as is rational logic).

Your logic is that it's "easier" to let Costco do it all for you, where the facts I'll contribute which affect the logic is that I've never been to Costco tire center without standing on long lines, even if I get there at opening time, so the _actual_ time is no where near 20 minutes for four tires.

Obviously the actual time will vary greatly, but 20 minutes doesn't seem rational to me for four tires at a typical Costco, which, I hope most people know, isn't exactly known for short lines (e.g., even the gas station lines are long, as are the food court lines, and the purchasing lines, and even the line to ask a question of the eyeglass center or pharmacists).

Where on earth to you have a Costco which not only has no lines, but which does the entire job in 20 minutes for four tires, where I can't even get to the counter in that time frame, let alone have them do all the paperwork and pay for it, etc. in that time frame?

Hi trader, As you're aware, I did a clutch a few months back, with the help of this newsgroup, as I had to replace the flywheel, for example, which required tools that I couldn't find at the local auto parts stores (the pilot bearing pulling tools were too large to fit in the ID of the pilot bearing).

This newsgroup is GREAT for learning things, since there are helpful people here who contribute to the potluck picnic something that EVERYONE can learn from.

My contribution is that the job is easy, and it takes about the same amount of time (when you factor everything in) as having a shop do it, so you don't do the job at home to save time.

You mostly do the job at home to learn, and to enjoy doing it, and to relish in the _knowledge_ gained by doing things yourself, which is, after all, a key purpose of doing _any_ repair by yourself.

As for savings, with this "new costco math", the savings, in 5 years, are: o $450 at Costco for 30 tires minus $200 for tools = savings of only $250

If we add the dynamic balance check, the math becomes: o $250 minus $20 = about $225 (I'm rounding numbers for easy math)

The key point to make is that there are _benefits_ to home repair o One key benefit is that you _learn_ more about things o Another key benefit is that you can do it any time you want to o Another benefit is that you can do it more often when you do it yourself o Another benefit is that you can "save" tires they won't repair (if you want to, as it's your choice based on your decision tree) o The best benefit is the satisfaction of self sufficiency

The cost benefit is always going to be there ... for example, the tools almost always pay for themselves ... but that's not the main reason you do home repair yourself.

The main reason is that you learn about and enjoy home repairs, and that you have the convenience of doing the job the way you want the job done (e.g., you use steel tire valves even if the tire shop doesn't use them).

Should I mention that traditionally the red spot is the "high" point of the tire, and would match with the "low" point of a slightly-not-round wheel, and the yellow dot is the "light" part of the tire, and matches with the "heavy" part of the wheel, usually where the valve is? Nah, that would be mean. :)

Hi Clare, I have to thank you for contributing to the tribal knowledge here, where Usenet is sort of like a Potluck Picnic, where everyone brings something of value for the others.

For me, you helped me many times when I hit stumbling blocks, e.g., when I didn't know how to get the clutch done, or when I didn't know how to replace the cooling system, and others helped, for example, on the bimmer where the CCV replacement was a bitch, etc., and for that I thank you all.

You also found GREAT information about brake pad friction material, e.g., the Michigan Police Cruiser Tests, where it's damn difficult to sort through all the marketing BS that surrounds brake pads (where almost nobody knows how to buy pads & shoes without falling prey to marketing BS, IMHO).

We've discussed polyetheramines (e.g., "techron" marketing) where I'm allergic to marketing bullshit, and where Costco gas is as good as any gas sold in terms of detergents, for example.

I'm all about facts, and then logical deductions based on those facts, where we've discussed, for example, tire warranties in the past, where you basically often don't get to use them due to the fine print.

Since I'm all about facts, and logic based on those facts, I generally disagree with people who just make s*it up, like the guys who think you can get decent tire specs on the net (you just can't, where I wish you could, but you can't "compare" tires by the real spec even if you got the $100,000 specs, simply because you'd need those $100,000 specs on all the tires you're considering, which just isn't gonna happen realistically). So all you have is what is molded onto the tire to go by (since tires are one of the most bullshit marketing commodities on this planet, IMHO).

Lots & lots of people fall for marketing bullshit; but I try not to.

With respect to the math on you getting "free" mounting and balancing, it depends, on course, on how much that "free" cost you, in that generally costs are bundled when they're said to be "free", where I generally add up the total cost, and not just the individual cost of cherry-picked items.

For example, I'd compare the total costs of a "free" mounting and balancing by comparing the total cost at the shop, versus the total cost from buying from SimpleTire and then having Costco mount and balance them (although Costco charges $5 for balancing each time if you bring in your own tires).

We have a Wheelworks locally which conveniently does free repairs too, but I prefer to do my own patchplug repairs at home simply for the satisfying convenience of not having to bring the car or tire to them.

Plus, as you're aware, lots of people plug tires from the outside at home, where, at home, I _still_ use the patchplug method, but it leaves the option of a quick outside patch which is even more convenient than an inside repair is (not that an inside repair is difficult since it's about as easy as it gets).

You have a point that a LOT of people don't like to get their hands dirty doing repairs, and tires are one of those things most people make excuses for not doing, but the real reason they don't do it is the same reason they don't clean toilet bowls.

If I made a living cleaning bathrooms, for example, (which, let's assume for the example that I don't like doing that), then the last thing I'd want to do when I get home, would likely be cleaning bathrooms.

But, personally, I like pouring hydrochloric acid in my toilet bowl to clean the crud. It just feels good to watch the acid dissolve the calcium deposits, so what we enjoy is up to us.

The only problem I have with most people's logic on why they don't do their own tire mounting & balancing is that they really are just making excuses for why they don't do something they just don't like doing.

At least you're honest that you just don't like doing it. o Most people make up bullshit excuses for why they "can't" do it (IMHO).

I'm allergic to bullshit. o It's fine if people _hate_ doing it (just like they hate doing homework) o But most of the excuses they make for not doing it don't hold water

You should hear the bullshit excuses I hear from the grandkids, for example, on why they can't do their homework.

The simple answer whenever someone says they can't mount and balance their own tires/wheels is that they just don't like doing it. And that's ok.

What's not ok are the bullshit excuses the try to foist on us.

Hi Clare, I fully agree with you that the equipment from HF is s***ty. o The tools work - but they're s***ty.

I don't disagree with you on facts o Adults almost never have problems agreeing on facts

In fact, there are plenty of articles on the net for how people tried to MODIFY the s***ty HF equipment to work better. These people use lathes, grinders, welders, taps, etc., so they _know_ what they're doing, and the fact is that they _still_ use the HF tools as the starting point.

For example, this guy highly modified the bead breaker: o

The best part of the bead breaker, though, is that curved part, which is fantastic; but the rest of the bead breaker sucks (but it works).

While he bolted down the bead breaker, I find that stepping on a piece of foot-wide board parallel to the base works fine. This guy was more redneck about fixing the flaws in the bead breaker, where the fact that people who can weld and craft steel _still_ use the bead breaker is a testament to the value of the curved part of the bead breaker tool from HF.

The tire changing tool, by way of contrast, is pretty good, except that the bead breaker attachment to that tire changing tool is nearly worthless on larger SUV tires (it works fine only on small economy car tires).

It's so easy to change tire with that tool that this guy does it in pajamas and slippers, where I admit, I've done it barefoot a few times myself. :)

This guy did modifications of the HF tire changing tool using a lathe and grinder and welding and tapping equipment, where you must clearly note that EVERYONE is SUCCESSFUL with the stock HF tools, but everyone notes that they are a bit flimsy with obvious design flaws.

Hi Clare,

Most people simply assume every tire _needs_ to be dynamically balanced, IMHO, where I've found that a static balance seems to work just fine.

We've discussed dynamic balancing before, where I showed the team the clever marketing pages in the past which show that there's a lot of bullshit around dynamic balancing, along with a lot of good science.

When you need it you need it, and when you don't, you don't o It's like penicillin

You either need penicillin, or you don't need penicillin. o Taking penicillin when you don't need it, doesn't help anything

If your tires are balanced well enough to not vibrate, then balancing them again isn't going to change antyhing just like taking penicillin for when you're not sick isn't going to change anything about your health.

I don't even know of a shop that won't dynamically balance, where they have to blance anyway, so they may as well dynamically blance (which will reduce return visits, which are what cost them the most, I'm sure).

In summary, these are what I've learned, from doing 30 tires: o It's easy to mount and static balance at home o Anyone who says otherwise, likely has never done it (MHO) o Almost everyone who says they can't do it, for exmaple, never did it

IMHO, most people are making lame excuses when they claim "why" they can't do it, since it's easy to do at home.

The real reson most people don't do it is simply they don't like doing it. o And that's OK.

At least you're honest in why you don't do it. o I appreciate your honesty because I'm allergic to bullshit from others who can't admit they don't like getting their hands dirty so they make up all sorts of lame excuses why they can't do their homework.

I _like_ being self suffiient where I don't mind my hands being dirty o They prefer having other people get their hands dirty

That's fine, as long as they're honest to themselves about it.

Oooops. The math may be off a bit as it was off the cuff above, but the math isnt' the main reason you get satisfaction out of being self sufficient, just as the math in the enjoyment of composting isn't in the saving you might get from having a smaller garbage pail.

IMHO, if we want to talk savings, I suspect the real savings are that you can choose any tire you like when you buy the lowest priced best-quality tires at a reputable outlet such as "SimpleTire", which, alone, saves you a ton of money where they don't charge sales tax or shipping most of the time in addition to having great prices, and _then_ you can mount them yourself, or, you can have Costco mount & balance them for $15, or, you can have Costco just balance them for $5.

The point is that most people make excuses when the reality always seems to be that they just don't like getting their hands dirty on this job, where the main reason for doing a home repair like this is, IMHO, the satisfaction of being self sufficient and in doing the job right (e.g., metal valves, heavy spot properly placed, fewest wheel weights, etc.).

There are other ancillary advantages, e.g., you can fix things when stores are closed, you can do them in your pajamas without having to wait in lines at the shop, you can fix things that they might not touch, e.g., nearer to the shoulder than they might fix or more worn than they might touch, etc., all of which are adult decisions YOU can make, and not them (as long as you're aware of the RMA guidlines which we all presumably are well aware of).

You can even patch a leak from the outside, if you do it at home, where nobody here is likely to be insisting they never did that in their life! :)

In short, most of what I hear from people as to why they don't like doing their homework is from people who have _never_ done it.

The ones who have never done it always seem to have the mnost excuses. o When the fact is that it's trivially easy to mount/balance at home.

As far as I know, only Clare has done it, and he is clear that he doesn't like doing it, particulrly with s***ty equipment, where I don't disagree and where I applaud his honesty.

Hi Sanity Claus,

I appreciate those comments, where, if you have a cite that backs up your belief system, I think it would be useful to all, as Usenet is designed to be a potluck picnic where each person adds value where they can.

Without further cites, I'd just note offhand that we have a looooooooong thread on a.h.r, as I recall, on this topic of exactly what the red and yellow spots mean, which can be _different_ for each manufacturer (and which aren't always there).

For example, we've covered that the marks are generally most useful for brand-new wheels (where the original match mounting marks are still visible), and we've covered why the light spot is still generally the valve area (all else being equal, of course), even though there's an "additional" valve there, simply because the plug of missing steel is generally heavier than the rubber & brass valve despite the very many old intuitive wives tales to the contrary.

I'm all about facts, where we've looked at the cites in the past to conclude that, in the absence of match-mounting marks on the wheel, the best course for a starting point mount at home is the red spot goes next to the valve if you have a red spot, and if you have only a yellow spot, as I recall, it goes opposite the valve (but I'd have to dig up the cites to doublecheck on that as most tires I've mounted have both the red and yellow so I only use the red mark as my starting point).

In summary, if you can back up your belief system with a cite, I'll read it, and if you want, I can dig up cites that back up my belief system since my belief system is never imaginary - my belief system is _always_ based on actual facts.

If facts show I need to _change_ my belief system, then I'll change it. o But at the moment, the facts show the red dot goes next to the valve (for stock steel wheels, and for most manufacturers' tires)

If you have facts that show otherwise, please cite them so we all benefit from every post.

There is only one place in Ontario to buy Nokian Hak tires - KAL Tire. If I picked the tires up and took them home and installed them myself they would have cost the same as having them mounted and ballanced - which also gives me free repairs. Their normal install and spin balance is $15 each

I still get my hands dirty - but on things more satisfying than fixing tires - or on things that save me more money

If I had the equipment I used to have available to me, to able to do the job RIGHT (balancing for instance, or changing tires on my expensive alloys without damaging them) I might still do it - but a bubble balance does not meet MY standard for balancing, and a s***ty "harbor fright" changer does not meet my requirements for cnanging tires on MY expensive alloy rims. The few time "I" need to change and balance tires would never make owning the equipment "I" would want worth while - and the space requiredfor that equipment, as well as the money I would tie up for that equipment, is better used for other things.

I don't use my lathe much either, but it's paid for and I use it for "fun" things - at least occaisionally. Same goes for my welder. Things that I CANNOT easily have someone else do for me the way I want them done, when I want them done, and for what I consider a "reasonable" price. - and I'll still have someone who is better at the job than me do it if it is something "critical". For instance, I don't TIG weld - just stick or gas - and a good friend of mine is a TIG artist. My 7 inch lathe can't handle some jobs I want to do - so I either take it to one friend or another who have big lathes - - one much higher precision than the other - who also has a milling machine - either to collect a favor or to pay them to do the job.

But I would NEVER mount a rare expensive alloy rim on that POS.

It works fine except when it doesn't.

And eating garlic when you need penicillin can cost you your life

Depending on the vehicle - YOU may not feel the dynamic inballance - but your tie-rod ends might. Dynamic inballance doesn't cause tramp - it causes shimmy - on rear wheels with a live axle it's not an issue - where on a sensitive independent front suspension it can be critical.

I don't know of a colmmecial tire shop that HAS a static balancer any more.

If I'm going to get my hands dirty I'd rather do it on an engine (or even brakes) than on tires

I'm always beholden to facts as I abhor imaginary belief systems.

Since I'm allergic to the intuition of old wives tales, but also since my memory is not even close to perfect, I looked up the cites again, even though I haven't read them in years, where it must be noted that the only perfect cite will be one from Hancook, which I didn't find, so we have to go on what we can find.

This is what Yokohama says about tire match mounting & balancing

Uniformity (red mark) "If the point of minimum radial run-out is not indicated on a wheel assembly, the weight method of match-mounting should be used."

Weight (yellow mark) "When performing weight match-mounting, the yellow mark on the tire, indicating the point of lightest weight, should be aligned with the valve stem on the wheel assembly, which represents the heaviest weight point of the wheel assembly. "

This is exactly what you said, and the exact opposite of what I had said, so I appreciate that you bring up that my memory was faulty.

Moving on for confirmation... I'll tackle a couple more hits & respond, but I wanted to THANK YOU for bringing up the point that my memory was faulty, which I APPRECIATE greatly!

I'm always beholden to facts as I abhor imaginary belief systems.

Hi Clare,

Thanks for that reference where I found some references literally _stole_ my pictures, which I take as a compliment! You'll recognize my tires, and my tools in some of the references below, for example.

As I noted prior, I could have sworn that we used to mount the red dot next to the valve stem for basic stock steel wheels, where I see you found one of the old references which mentioned that practice of aligning the valve stem to the red dot.

I found others which both confirm and deny that assumption, so I have some homework to do to catch up on what I thought I had known so I hadn't bothered to look it up recently until now.

For now, we'll assume the meaning of the two colored dots are described here where "red" === "uniformity" and where "yellow" === weight.

Bear in mind each manufacturer can use different colors, or no dots as explained here in this canonical Bridgestone summary:

Given that reference which you kindly unearthed, I'm not sure which way to go forward, bearing in mind these aren't custom wheels; they're plain jane stock steel cheap wheels (but where I also work on the BBS alloy wheels).

Here are the articles I'll read to make the decision, all over again, whether to align the stem to the red or yellow dot, and/or to set up a jig for checking the high point and low point in radial runout, although, at home, it would be only static.

This is the canonical publication which no longer seems to exist:

This seems to be a summary:

o Mounting & custom wheel handling

o Bridgestone Tires Red & Yellow Dots

o Yokohama mounting procedures

o Tire Rack match mounting

o Red & yellow dots

o Continental "coloured dot" markings on car tyres

o Match mounting

o Match mounting

My belief system is based on facts, where I've noticed that most people seem to have imaginary belief systems, but where, when it's complicated, then any belief system that works, is fine.

Hence, for now, I'm gonna stick with the old method of red dot === valve stem, unless there is no red dot, and then yellow dot === valve stem, unless we can unearth a definitive reference that soundly refutes those above.

Thanks for keeping an open mind, as you're the only other one on this ng, that I know of, who has actually mounted & balanced a car tire themselves.

Hi Clare, I agree with your logic, since adults generally have no problem agreeing on rational logic based on actual facts so if that's the only place you can get your tires from that you want, then there's no way you're gonna save even a penny trying to get them online.

But since I get them online, if I include the tire savings, see my rough calculation below which comes out to over $1,000 saved in the past 5 years assuming a nominal $100 tire.

Since I'm all about facts, I'm also very much all for basic math, where the total cost includes things like tools, time, convenience, sales tax, shipping, installation, repairs, and disposal.

One nice thing about SimpleTire is that, for most locales, they don't seem to charge tax & shipping, which, if you know Tire Rack's shipping prices, is huge (at something like $15 to $20 per tire, last I used them).

Out here, if you buy locally, you have to add about 10% to the price of the tires without gaining you a single thing, for example. Plus, some charge up to around $7.50 for disposal, and some won't let you dispose of the tires yourself, so, again, the math depends on the outlet we're dealing with.

I love the suggestion that trader made which is that Costco will check my balance for five bucks a tire, which is a good deal, IMHO, at least for me to triple check the balance in that... o I already static balance o I already check dynamic balance on the road o I can add a triple-check of a $5 dynamic balance to check my work

I'll do that, and snap pictures (if Costco will let me), to show that I've done that, as even I'm interested in how close I got to the balance point.

Using roudabout math, on savings, I'd say the savings per tire can vary greatly, but assuming a simple base of about $100 per tire, the sales tax is about $10 here, and let's say we get an online competitive advantage of, oh, let's be super conservative and peg it at only 10% but it could be huge in my experience, simply due to the way competition works on highly marketed commodities, so that's 20% minimum as a savings on obtaining the tire where I live.

Then add the $15 (which is 15% of the price of a $100 tire keeping things in percentages), but subtract the $5 for Costco balancing, and then add another $5 for the valve stem and disposal (if they're added costs, which they generally are), and we arrive at a roundabout figure of saving about

That 1/3 cost saving is a conservative estimate, IMHO, as the savings in the price alone are often tremendous, based on what I've seen, although many outfits will "match" Internet prices, but they don't match the sales tax or the Costco $5 dynamic balancing that Trader so kindly & helpfully unearthed.

I don't disagree with your logic, where adults almost never have problems comprehending logic when it's reasonable, as yours is.

You don't like changing tires at home, just like my grandkids hate doing homework at home, and I hate doing my own taxes by hand on paper.

It's ok.

As long as we are honest about it, I have no beef with our logic.

My beef is generally with the people who make up excuses for why they can't do something, when the real fact is that the're afraid or that they don't have the skills (e.g., as you are well aware, doing an alignment will make these people's brain burst from the calculations they have to perform since the measurements you have are almost never in the units you can most easily or accurately measure).

I also have expensive alloy rims, on my bimmer, where I would say that there's almost zero chance that a homeowner is going to damage them using the s***ty HF tools that I'm talking about.

I could be wrong, but I certainly did my own wheels and I didn't see any way that I could accidentally damage them unless I did something stupid with steel (which, admittedly, is harder than the alloy).

For one, the s***ty HF tools are flimsy, and for the other, a homeowner will take his sweet time, where the worst thing I've ever seen done to my alloy wheels is the red paint on a brand new HF tire mounting tool will scrape off in flecks against the bead stop of the alloy wheel.

In fact, I can't find a _single_ cite on the net where someone has damaged an alloy rim with the HF tools, where I can see tons of examples of people doing alloy rims, so, while I am sure you can _always_ damage something if you are clumsy about it, I can't imagine in a billion years damaging the rims of my soft alloy wheels - and - quite to the contrary - I suspect someone doing it at home does a far more gentle job than the guy getting paid by the job to get it over with (don't ask me about my horror stories, for example, of all the steps they skip in the shops).

This is a viable concern, where, again, rational logic is understood instantly by all adults. o You have to pay about $200 for the equipment, and, o You have to mount it somewhere (although not permanently), and, o You have to store that equipment forever.

Since the equipment is steel, and since I have plenty of room, I have my mounter mounted to the sidewalk where I can remove it if I want to and box it up such that it takes up no more room than a common car camping tent.

The bead breaker is just sitting there, outside, along with the tire ramps and jack stands, all of which are steel so leaving them outside (in California, where it never snows and only rains during the monsoon season), works out just fine so storeage is zero problem for me.

As for the cost that you can do better things with, that argument fails instantly, since the tools always turn out to be free, and even better, the tools always pay for themselves, so there is no logical argument on costs that anyone can make that fit basic adult math that don't end up with the tools making money.

You almost certainly can make _more_ money with that $200 spent on the tools, but they themselves will _always_ make money for you.

The only real problem is storage, which, for me, is outside where I have far more cumbersome & finicky things (like a lawn mower, or leaf blower, for example) to store.

I have both gas and electric welding equipment, which, I barely use. Likewise, I have a grinder, which I sporadically use, about as often as I use the mulcher. We all have tools that paid for themselves in the first-time use that we _still_ have.

For example, you may recall that I bought a HF $150 (or so) transmission jack when I did the clutch a few months ago. I don't know what to do with that transmission jack, but it was free so I can't complain too much about it.

I also have garage door winding bars, which only cost a couple of bucks, but I keep them around becuase I might need them again, they store nicely, and, as always, the tools were free.

Same with car ramps, wheel chocks, jack stands, etc., where almost all my tools, if not all the tools, turned out to be free once you factor in the savings of doing the job ourselves.

The one thing I haven't tried yet is alignment tools, where I really want to get to that task again, since accurate electgronic tools are just getting better and better, and, more to the point, most vehicles have less and less things that you can adjust (e.g., my bimmer has only toe in the front, and camber and toe in the rear and that's it).

You can add after-market stuff like camber plates in the front, but stock, the only things you can align are the "ride height" normal setting (which takes about 500 pounds of water mind you), and then you measure and adjust those three things.

BTW, another reason for doing things at home is right in that statemnet above, where how many alignment shops besides BMW dealers carries 500 pound of weight just so they can do the alignment correctly?

When you say "rare", that may change things, since there usually are a few specks of red paint that end up on my alloy wheels from my bimmer, but I have to ask you a basic question of what damage are you speaking about?

How can that HF bead breaker, tire mounter, or bubble balancer damage anything?

The _only_ place I can see _any_ possible damage is when mounting and dismounting the tire using the tire mounter, where the only force is on the edge of the metal, where the worst I've ever seen is red paint flecks all around the rim.

What kind of damage are you implying can happen with that tool?

My main point is that nobody is saying on the net that it doesn't work, and neither am I.

With the three tools, I have been 100% successful with every tire I tried from economy cars to my bimmer to the SUV. o Bead breaker o Tire mounter o Static balancer

I agree with you that the tools are s***ty, and I even showed you cites backing up that claim since I'm always reasonable and logical in all that I do.

The interesting thing is that people with really good mechanical skills _still_ use the tools; they just modify them a bit, which is a testament to how useful they really are, is it not?

Ummmm... is that a fact? Or an old wives' tale?

Just in case that was a fact, I googled, but didn't find it as a fact.

So maybe it was a joke?

My point was that if you balance a tire, then balancing it again doesn't improve the balance, where if there isn't any vibration after the first balance, you're not going to get less vibration in the second, third, forth, figth, sixth, etc., repeat of the same task.

If you don't need dynamic balancing, you don't need it o And if you need it, you need it.

My position has been that if you don't feel any vibration at speed, then you don't need it, but if there are facts that show otherwise, I'm glad to see them cited.

My position has been that if you don't feel any vibration at speed, then you don't need it, but if there are facts that show otherwise, I'm glad to see them cited.

I understand that a wheel may have imperceptible vibration, but I don't know of any cites that reliably claim that this imperceptible vibration is causing problems and therefore must be eliminated.

I've replaced tie rods, tie rod ends, ball joints, pitman arms, idler arms, etc., where I am aware of the many joints in some kinds of steering systems and suspensions.

Let's bear in mind that just driving down a bumpy road causes all sorts of vibrations which cars handle day in and day out, right?

So if imperceptible vibrarions are causing problems, then I would just seek a reliable cite that backs up that belief system.

Even so, Trader's valuable suggestion of the $5 balance at Costco negates that worry instantly, so I think it's a red herring since I will check the balance this third time (first static, second driving, and then third, Costco), at least on the first few wheels so I can check out better how well I'm doing with the static balance.

I'll snap pictures at Costco, if they'll let me (they've stopped me at times, but now everyone has cell phones so maybe they're more tolerant than they were of SLRs when I used to snap pictures of them installing my tires).

I agree with you, where about the only place I still see static balance is for motorcycle tires, where, I must add, I don't know anyone who doesn't mount their own motorcycle tires, since they're all differnet people (my buddies are beemer riders though, which is a different class of rider than the other two main types).

I like that you are being honest that you don't like doing tires at home, particularly on s***ty equipment, which the HF stuff certainly is.

I am allergic to bullshit; but I accept rational logic instantly.

What I find satisfying about engine work or brakes is the same sense of self reliance that I get from rotating and mounting and repairing tires and wheels.

I do find brakes particularly satisfying though, mainly becuase they're so astoundingly easy to do, coupled with the fact that the bimmer dealer often charges some people a thousand bucks to do a simple four wheel brake job.

Likewise with a cooling system overhaul, which, if you know anything about bimmers, is "scheduled maintenance" given the plastic crap they put in that engine bay, particularly that s***ty expansion tank.

What I find amazing is the trouble people go to to NOT get their hands dirty, for example, on changing oil, a lot of bimmer owners use the pressure method, where, for me, gravity works just fine even as it's a bit dirtier in the long run.

As long as we're all honest about why we do or don't do a job, I'm ok with that.

It's the ones who have _never_ mounted & balanced a tire/wheel assembly who try to make outlandish excuses for why they can't do something even that simple, is where I bother to disagree with folks - since I'm all about facts and logical deductions based on those facts.

I _like_ being self sufficient; but I can understand that others will simply pay others to do the work for them.

The suggestion by Trader seems to be the best compromise:

1. Save around 1/3 per tire by buying online
2. Mount & balance at home & test drive for a second balance check
3. If desired, pay Costco per tire to triple check balance

Where others pay $115 at Costco for a $100 tire, I pay less than $75 out the door (using the rough figures above). This adds up when you're doing 30 tires, for example, where the savings alone is well over $1,000 for those five years of buying tires (or about $250 savings every year, but the first year is for the equipment, so that goes positive only after the 2nd year).

OK - find any credible reference showing the use of yellow and red by ANY other manufacturer where the colors are switched. ANY. I'm throwing you the challenge. Remember - it has to be a CREDIBLE reference - from someone who is guaranteed to know more about the subject than you - in other words not a hobbyist - but someone intimately familliar with the company involved.

Are you up for the challenge Mr Holder? Not saying it isn't out there, or that you won't find it - but I've never seen it. Mabee someone used green and orange, or white and yellow, or white and red. - happy hunting.

I don't drive on $100 tires. Last tire I bought was $223.00 plus disposal fee and HST. The tires I put on my daughter's car were about $180 each - for 16 inch tires.

Here in Ontario you pay a $3.30 eco " disposal" fee when you buy a tire - and nothing when you get rid of it

And I can buy just about ANY tire locally for less than I can buy it online, including the criminal shipping charges.Used to be I could get a tire out of Quebec for less - with really cheap shipping. Them days are GONE. (I never ordered any, but my son-in-law did)

Here it's 13% - and if the company does buisiness in Ontario they have to charge that tax. 14.75% in Quebec. Only BC, Alberta, Sask and the territories are lower - and shipping from any of them kills any tax advantage unless I buy them while there on holliday.

Are you checking your date codes on your "discount" online tires??? Any time I've found "discounted" tires around here they are AT LEAST

That star hold-down isn't going to mar the center where it clamps it down? You can buy a replacement for your bimmer from a scrap yard for under $75 if you do screw it up. I looked for several years to find the set of wheels on my truck - and even NEW ones are not available - period. I wouldn't trust that s***ty tire changer "finger" to keep the wheel from turning without damaging the center of the wheel either. The winter wheels are common enough - they were factory equipment on at least 2 years of Ford Explorer - but finding GOOD ones is getting harder every day

You won't buy any tire changer I would use on my wheels for $200. The TSI Model# CH-22/23 is available in the USA from Northern Tool for $499 and it is about the minimum standard I would accept. It's $680 with a floor plate. (and surprisingly, again, equivalent under a different model numberavailable for less - about $400 Canadian including shipping, plus 13% HST from ASC365 International) My preference would be a swing-arm changer - best price I've seen is about $1200 US plus shipping to Canada.

Totally different up here in "the great white north"

They would take a long time to pay for themselves for me - I buy 2 good sets of tires for each vehicle about every 6 years - one set of summers, and one of ice/snow. Even if I do my daughter's tires too it takes a long time to pay for a $400 tire changer - and that's not counting the ballancer.

That's all you can ADJUST - but not all you can BEND and need to CHECK.

Wheel center - with that absolutely s***ty and destructive hold down spider - and the sloppy destructive pin that keeps the wheel from turning on the machine.

As a former professional mechanic, one thing I can NOT STAND is s***ty tools

No, it's a testament to how cheap the guys are.

If you need penicillin to cure an infection and you just keep chewing garlic, you are likely to die of the infection

Not a joke - just obvious logic. Doesn't matter if it is garlic, asprin, or chocolate chip cookies. If you have a fatal condition that requires a specific medication to cure it and you don't get the medication - you are DEAD

It can cause accellerated wear to the steering linkage.

I "static ballanced" the front tires on the MG TD without any equipment at all - just to get it "close enough" to know if the shake I was getting was just a tire problem. Throwing a few weights at it so it never stopped in the same position any more made it so it didn't shage at 35MPH any more - it took about 55 - so I sent the wheels to the shop and precision ballanced them. I was within an ounce of perfect statically - without even a bubble ballancer - but WHAT A DIFFERENCE with an accurate dynamic ballance.

And I'm appalled how many REALLY STUPID people think they can do brakes - and TOTALLY screw things up and manage not to kill themselves and/or someone else. Believe me - as a mechanic I've pretty much seen it all!! And scrutineering at the Street Rod Nationals years ago you wouldn't believe how BAD many of them were, mechanically - Brakes, steering, suspension and controls. Some of them with $10,000+ paint jobs - back in the eighties!!

I still can't figure out how anyone with a pinch of sense would EVER buy a second Bimmer - particularly not a USED one.

To each his own I guess. I'd get sick of fixing a bimmer pretty quick. Just like a VW/Audi or Porsche - or a Benz. Used to be they were "quality" cars. Now they are just "prestige" cars or small pecker compensators.

Driving a Bimmer on $75 tires explains (at least partly) why you need to change so many tires and puts the lie to your claim that it isn't just because you are a cheapskate that you need to do everything yourself. There isn't a tire you can buy for $75 that I'd EVER waste the time or money to install on ANY of my vehicles - or my worst enemy's Bimmer.

The cost to have my tires professionally installed and ballanced (or what I pay the shop my brother used to own down the road to "borrow" his changer or ballancer to do it myself) is a small percentage of the cost of my quality tires - which are not "expensive" when spread over

I don't buy the most expensive tires - and I don't think I over-pay for my tires - but I don't buy tires based on price - and don't buy - or drive on - "cheap" tires.

When you buy the most expensive OR the cheapest - either way you are paying too much - - - - -

Just checked - that was including tax, install and ballance. Small tires (205 55 16) for Hyundai Elantra GT. - so $142 plus install, disposal fee, and taxes. I guess that's about $106 US for the bare tire. The 235 70 16 tires on the Ranger and 225 70 17 on the Sorento cost significantly more. Almost double.

The Hyundai tire is the same as the base tire on a 325i Bimmer - so I guess in Cali a $100 tire on a low end bimmer might make sense. On a

What if your municipality has a blight ordinance and you get a $500 fine for having unsightly junk stored in your yard?

Woooah there Pilgrim. You have a vivid imagination. I never said any of that, quite the opposite. I said that I'm not going to mount tires at home myself, for many reasons, when I can get them mounted and dynamically balanced at Costco for $15 a tire. Step three is really dumb, screwing around mounting them at home, then pay $5 at Costco to get them balanced, when you can get them mounted and balanced for $15, no fuss, no muss.

There is also the issue of how long a tire lasts. IDK if there is a correlation between cost and life, but I can tell you that the last Michelins went 100K miles, which surprised me. So, if you paid half that and they went half or less than that, would that tire be a good deal? I always look at reviews and ratings.