How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?

How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?

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Yesterday, for practice in dismounting, patching, and remounting, I patched these 5 tires above, which a friend and I had lying around.

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For the purpose of this thread, we can ignore the tread wear since the question is being asked about how to decide when a nail hole is too close to the sidewall.

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I guess the first question is *WHY* we can't patch next to the sidewall. Is it that the patch won't hold? Why? Is it that the patch will flex too much? Or is it that the belts are damaged and they will break?

Reply to
Frank Baron
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None of those are even close to the sidewall; they're all well out in tread area.

All of the above in greater/lesser degree depending on just where and how bad the damage is...

Reply to
dpb

Gotta' ask....what is your ongoing fascination with tire dismounting/mounting/repairing ;-)

Reply to
Wade Garrett

Those holes are nowhere near the sidewall to be off concern. I've patched/plugged holes much closer than that. In fact, I plugged a hole a few mm from the corner and it held up for the remaining tread life.

If the patch/plug job is well prepped and well applied, there shouldn't be a reason it will fail.

Reply to
Meanie

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 10:14:36 -0600, dpb advised:

Thank you for the information as some were on the last tread groove (see below how we patched it with a home-made plug patch.

Thank you for that advice because I wasn't sure at all how close you can get to the sidewall for it to fail the patch test.

We patched this alloy-wheel 55-series tire where a flat-on-both-sides tiny bolt (with no sharp edges whatsoever) had wedged itself into the last groove, and eventually punctured the tire.

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Here you see the tiny (now headless) bolt next to the puncture hole:

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To properly patch that hole, we reamed the hole with this hand tool:

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Using that hand tool, we probed the hole slant (it went in straight):

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Then we grabbed this second hand tool & slobbered glue on the plug:

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This is the plug sticking up on the outside of the 55-series tire:

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To cut off the protruding plug, we failed trying the diagonal cutter:

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We also failed with the flush dikes because the plug was too rubbery:

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We ended up slicing it off with a utility knife but we learned how to slice the plug off more neatly when we cut off the plug protruding on the inside:

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The dremel tool metal blade cut off the plug flush with the inside wall:

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Then we buffed with a wire wheel, where we learned that it would be much nicer to have a "ball" shaped wire wheel because of the angles involved in buffing away the outside rubber to expose the virgin rubber to the vulcanizing glue:

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Here is the buffed result before applying the patch over the plug:

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After applying vulcanizing glue, we stitched down the patch:

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Where this is what the final patch looked like:

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Any advice you can provide will be helpful as the whole point was to learn by doing, where already I'd do it differently the next time (e.g., I'd use the dremel tool on both the inside and outside and I would get a roundish wire brush that fit the inside of a tire better.

Reply to
Frank Baron

Belts are on the part of the tire that touches the road. Keeps the tread rigid so it does not flex much on the road and wear faster. Side wall are made more flexible and are not as easy to patch.

Reply to
Frank

I'm very aware of the tire design. That doesn't erase the fact of proper patching/plugging them. As I stated, your holes aren't even neat the sidewall. Thus, I'm wondering why you'd even be concerned in those locations.

Reply to
Meanie

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 11:38:23 -0500, Wade Garrett advised:

That's a good question which I don't know how to answer.

Thinking about it, I guess it's just that I hate to not be able to do something that I *should* be able to do at home.

We should all be able to: a. Mount and dismount a tire at home b. Patch a tire at home c. Balance a wheel at home

I patched all five tires, and learned a bunch about what tools would be better (e.g., a roundish wire brush would be a dream come true to have).

Here I found that breaking the bottom bead on an alloy wheel 55-series tire was tremendously easier than it was on the 75-series SUV steel-wheel tires (but you notice how I positioned the purpose-built HF bead-breaking tool with a board on one end and the HF tire changer on the other end):

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Then I learned to mark the position of the valve since we'd normally be re-using these tires and we would want the balance to be the same as it was before (at least as a starting point):

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Breaking the top bead was so easy that it doesn't need explanation:

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Likewise, levering off the top bead from the alloy wheel was easy peasy:

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Levering off the bottom bead from the alloy wheel was also very easy:

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Then, it was time to plug and patch the hole, which, in this case, was made by a bolt that was NOT sharp!

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The bolt may have wedged into the groove and slowly punctured the tire: Any advice you can provide (that is intended to be helpful) is welcome because I always want to learn (but advice saying have it done at a shop is not going to be helpful).

Reply to
Frank Baron

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 12:08:54 -0500, Meanie advised:

Thanks Meanie, as that was the kind of information I was seeking. How close can you get to the edge, and, why.

I am assuming it flexes more at the edges. I am assuming that flex will eventually work the patch free.

Is that correct?

BTW, what *size* & *shape* patches do you put over the protruding plug?

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I tried a small round patch (which was a bit bumpy):

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And a bigger patch which was flatter:

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Also what do you use at home to cut the plug off flush?

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It would have been nice to get the plug cut more flush than this:

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Although, when I buffed it with the wire wheel, it was flush:

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Reply to
Frank Baron

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 13:58:01 -0500, Meanie advised:

I think you replied to "Frank" who is different than I am, so you're both in agreement that you can get to the edge of the tire tread.

As I replied to Frank, I hadn't realized there were circumferential steel belts on top of radial nylon plies, so, it seems (but I'm not sure) that the delineation line is the edge of the steel belts.

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The problem is, of course, figuring out *where* those steel belt edges lie:

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From the diagrams, they seem to lie just below the last tread marks:

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From what you said, the sides that don't have belts flex so much that the patch would fall off. Is that a correct assessment of the edge problem?

Reply to
Frank Baron

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 13:37:16 -0500, Frank advised:

Thanks Frank for explaining as I didn't realize until I just looked it up that there are circumferential steel "belts" and then there are these "radial" body plies.

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If I look at these cutaway diagrams, it seems we can patch to the edge of the steel belts, but not after that edge (where there is only the "body plies". Is that right?

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Reply to
Frank Baron

That was my point.

Reply to
Frank

You're correct, my apologies.

Reply to
Meanie

Keep in mind, the industry standard requires patches within right to left tread area only and never to patch a hole larger than 1/4". Thus, a repair facility will not usually patch or plug a tire beyond that area. My experience is just that...mine and I have plugged/patch a few tires in my days. I've plugged a few tires in my days to help friends and because service shops will not or just to save a few buck.

Overall, it depends on the tire brand as I don't know how much they differ in design or placement of their belts. I know the more expensive brands (Bridgestone, Michelin, Pirelli, etc.) have stronger sidewalls than the cheaper and would benefit a patched hole near the edge. Also, low profile tires have shorter sidewalls and offer greater strength over higher sidewall tires.

Yes, they will flex at the edge and down the sidewall but the tread portion remains in contact with the road. IMO, a plug or patch anywhere along the tread area should hold if prepped properly.

A patch roughly 1" to 1 1/4" in diameter is sufficient but I also recommend a patch/plug combo if one can be used. Otherwise, it is important to ensure that proper prep is performed.

In the areas you plugged, if you're just using a plug, there is no need to remove the tire, You can simply plug the hole from the outside. There's no need to cut the plug on the inside. But in those open areas, a patch/plug is better.

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$T2eC16VHJGYE9nooiLK+BQUlyRvG4Q~~60_57.JPG?set_id=8800005007 if you want to ensure a good seal. You protrude the plug from the inside out. The patch makes contact with the inner tire and the plug sticks out from the tread. That is where you cut using a pair of dykes.
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You don't want to cut the plug flush. It is best to leave some straddling out. As it makes contact with the road, it will help seal the area from the outside. Even if the hole is inside a tread, cut if flush with the top of the tread. As the tire wears, so will the plug stem.

Reply to
Meanie

An improperly installed tire repair is a disaster waiting to happen. I hope Frankie's liability insurance is adequate and paid up.Particularly if the tires are not going on his own vehicle.

Reply to
clare

And steel belts are hell on plugs, and if fractured can really cause problems with tread squirm and tire integrety.

Reply to
clare

Th eproblem with belt edge repairs is in the way the belt is manufactured - the edge of the belt has similar too the "selve edge" on broadcloth fabric - the "weave" is different to provide a non-ravelling edge to provide strength. A plug too close to the edge of the belt damages this re-enforced edge, risking a belt rupture Generally speaking an inch and a quarter in from the edge or shoulder of the tread is as close as repairs are recommended. The last bit of the belt is a worse problem than the actual shoulder, outside the belt area.

A fractured belt can do a LOT of damage to a car when it lets go - even if it does not cause loss of control. I've seen fenders (wings to our British friends) torn off or totally destroyed by an exploding tire belt, and the side of a travel trailer totally demolished.

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According to the tire industry association, neither just a plug ot just a patch is acceptable, and a tire should be totally temoved from the rim for repair to properly inspect for secondary damage. I'll plug a tire to get home, but a proper repair should be completed as soon as possible.

Reply to
clare

I agree about the damage a tire can do

Throughout the years, I have often heard warnings such as dropping or painting a motorcycle helmet halts it's ability to protect, patching or plugging a motorcycle or car tire is dangerous, etc. and I've have yet to hear. read or experience any mishaps related from such an event. Not saying it hasn't happened, but I've yet to hear about such a case. I won't dispute the possibilities, but I also believe many warnings are in place for the manufacturer to protect themselves from liability and warranty. Thus, each person should proceed at their own risk.

I have done many repair jobs on car and motorcycle tires to save money while growing up. I do so now cause I know how even though I can afford to have it done or replace a product but I cannot see replacing a good product because it has a minor flaw. Could I be at risk? Possibly, but it's a risk I've taken often and I'm willing to take again due to the

100% success rate thus far.
Reply to
Meanie

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 16:51:17 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca advised:

That's good advice except it's not usable advice unless you actually think the plug-and-then-patch repairs I made are "a disaster waiting to happen".

It's like saying "don't run with scissors", which is great advice, but essentially not useful advice.

What I'm looking for is useful advice, particularly with respect to my technique. I agree with you that a single-piece patch-plug is superior to my two piece arrangement but other than that, what do you see "unsafe" about my plug-and-then-patch method?

The whole point is to find out if this method is a safe patch.

To help you advise me, I provided plenty of pictures of the plug and then patch which, I think, is a valid patch [except for the tread wear (which is a separate issue unrelated to the patch itself)].

Here is what is underneath the patch:

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Here is the final repair on the inside (using a big patch):

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Here is the final repair on the inside (using a small patch):

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Other than the treadwear, did you see anything unsafe in my patch technique?

a. Location of patch b. Patch materials c. Patch technique

Or is it all safe?

Reply to
Frank Baron

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 17:18:30 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca advised:

Thanks for that detail that the edge of the steel belt is different than the middle of the steel belt. That may be why I think I've heard tire repair guys saying they can't patch within so many inches of the edge, even if it's still in the "tread" area.

Thank you for that detail because that's essentially why I asked the question. So we're looking at an inch (to remember it easily) from the edge of the tread on both sides.

I have seen "alligators" on the road, mostly from truck tires, probably from re-surfaced tires, probably on the inside tire of a dual-tire setup, which must flap like a sonofabitch when they come off!

This industry (RMA?) recommendation makes sense, and I agree with your statement that both a plug and a patch should be made and the inside of the tire should be visibly inspected.

For one, someone could have driven on the tire such that the belts are protruding from the inside. In this case, I didn't see such damage on the five test tires, but it could have been there.

I agree with you that an external plug in an emergency is an expediency that most of us would do. I'd even patch a sidewall, if that's what it took to get off the road. (Dunno if that's even possible though.)

Reply to
Frank Baron

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