Clare, Xeno.... did you ever have a batch of tires that just wouldn't seal after the final bead?

[Arlen G. Holder]

Clare, Xeno.... and anyone else who has actually mounted tires at home... this is a question simply to hone my skills, based on your experience.

Did you ever have a batch that just wouldn't seal after the final bead? o How did you prevent that from happening? o If it did happen, why did it happen, and, more importantly, o What TOOL do I need to get to solve this problem without helpers?

As you are well aware, everyone around me burns through tires due to the artificially high steering-induced positive camber causing camber scrub on the inside edge of the front wheels due to steep long windy hilly mountain one-lane asphalt roads:

And, as you are aware, I patchplug my own tires, as needed, since they get punctured usually about once or twice per set per lifetime of that set.

I buy whatever tools I need to mount tires at home, such as this HF bead breaker:

which, I admit, sucks - particularly on the larger stiffer light truck tires, but, with a few slight modifications (such as the long board you see in this picture to "extend" the base - it works well enough such that in just a minute or two all the beads I've ever attempted have been broken:

In the past, you helped me with the various little-known tricks of the trade, such as the use of dish detergent and water to lubricate the bead

And you helped me understand the 'drop center' where there are about a dozen such tricks that are needed to more easily break and mount the six beads overall for each tire, before you seal it with the air pressure.

One indispensable trick Clare patiently explained is the clear distinction between the "yellow" dot and "red" dot for steel wheels which have long ago lost their match-mounting marks:

And, another bit of useful advice that the experts know is which tire valves are best, where I'm slowly using up my supply of the rubber ones so that I can go to the bolt on ones in the future exclusively:

Over time, taking in all this advice, I've successfully mounted & balanced almost two score tires at home, as witnessed by this pile being just the recent trash that I need to drop off at Costco at $1 per tire, plus tax.

Where I must say, they balanced BEAUTIFULLY (better than ever before!):

And yet - even after about 40 tires under my belt in the past few years, I _still_ occasionally get a stubber set of tires - like this last batch - which just wouldn't seat for the final pressurization stage after all six beads were mounted.

The problem was, without TWO HELPERS!, I couldn't seal the final bead for the life of me to pressurize the tire - which was a new problem for me.

Everything else was easy - but I couldn't get the air to stay inside!

Literally, I had to use 2 additional helpers just to squish the tire enough that I could get the bead to hold air for that critical first few seconds (and yes, the schrader valve was removed where I used the same equipment I've always used on these same sized passenger truck tires).

The only thing I did differently with this set of passenger truck tires was that they were stored on their treads for about half a year, since I bought two sets of the same tires, on sale, so I stored them.

Only after I pondered WHY was this one set so difficult to get the bead to seat did I wonder if they're supposed to be stored 'flat' and if that made the difference????

Did you ever have a set of tires that just wouldn't easily seal?

Two questions arise if you have experience with this specific problem.

1. What additional tools do I need to purchase?
2. What trick can I do to make it easier to seal the beads?

[Dean Hoffman]

An old farmer trick is to use a come along. (coffin hoist). Wrap the cable around the tire and cinch it up. That should push the beads toward the rim. They do make come alongs with straps instead of cable. I've thought about using a ratchet strap but never actually tried it.

[Clare Snyder]

Storing flat will GUARANTEE you will have a problem - - - You need a "blaster" on your tire machine to inflate the tire through the bead gap.Or a hand held "BAZOOKA"

See

Or build your own

[Clare Snyder]

Worked good on old bias tires - not so good on belted and radial tires

[Terry Coombs]

  Ratchet straps work . Sometimes ... and so does a piece of rope wrapped around the tire and tightened by twisting a stick in a loop to tighten it . What works even better is a bicycle tube . Get one the right size for your wheels . Lay it in the gap between the rim and the new tire , pressurize it to seal the gap . Inflate the new tire , as it seats the bead the tube will pop out of the gap . A properly sized length of garden hose works sometimes too . A couple of wraps of duct tape to connect the ends helps . In a pinch I've sprayed hair spray or butane from a refill cartridge in the tire and tossed a match at it . Works but can be hard on tires and rims ...

[Xeno]

Yes to the first. Tyre strap for the second. One strap only around the middle of the tyre.

In another post, ratchet straps are mentioned. They might work. I've always used the proper tyre strap so never tried alternatives but whatever works.

Had a friend recently have the issue. The first mistake he made was retaining the valve core - bad move since you need a decent blast of air. Second was he was using one of those cheap tyre inflaters on his compressor that limits flow drastically. I told him to take it off and blast it with the air hose plugged directly onto the valve. He was also using 2 (two) tyre straps, each being over a bead. Bad move as that forces the sidewalls inwards *away* from the beads. Just one around the centre of the tread works perfectly and puts an outward pressure on the bead helping to minimise air loss there.

Bottom line; maximise air flow, minimise air loss.

[Andrew]

Wimps.

Do it the Icelandic way. Spray some lighter fuel inside the tyre and apply a flame.

[Arlen G. Holder]

I've done that redneck trick and it certainly does work.

Where that video provides a decent explanation at time point 85

What worked best, for me, was MAF cleaner, although carb cleaner also worked but the problem is lighting it without getting the lighter itself caught in the bead since it pops instantly.

In fact, when I had a scare that my fingers were a bit too close, that's when I decided, about a half dozen years ago, to buy the tools, which only cost about the price of mounting a dozen tires, which goes pretty fast out here in the states, especially in the mountains where we wear out the outside edge of the front tires before anything else

which Xeno & Clare have told me is most likely due to camber scrub

The crappy Harbor Freight tools easily paid for themselves long ago

1. HF Bead Breaker (about fifty bucks or so)
2. HF Tire Mounter (about fifty bucks or so)
3. HF Wheel Balancer (about seventy five bucks or so)

After about two score tires in the past half dozen years, I've only needed a helper in the final air-filling stage - where - in this case - I needed TWO helpers.

So I will see if I can find a good price for a tire strap. Or, maybe figure out better technique, such as what this guy does at time point 146 by putting the tire on top of another tire to seat the bottom bead and then stepping on the top bead while filling with air:

Instead of trying to seat both beads while the wheel is still on the tire changer - which is what I've been doing.

[Arlen G. Holder]

Hi Xeno,

Thanks for the vote on the tire straps, where you were instrumental in helping me hone WHY almost all the tires on this mountain wear out on the outside edge of the front tires before anything else!

On the topic of tire straps, my OP shows that I did try a 'rope' but it broke after about only a dozen or so turns, where it wasn't doing anything effective anyway.

Also on the topic of ratchet straps, Clare posted a few videos of American ingenuity at work with homemade bazooka air blasters, where both of those videos used a strap but to no avail.

This first video seems to use two ratchet straps:

And he used a block of wood UNDER the tire to hold the bottom bead.

While this video uses a steel strap which might be a tire strap?

Is _that_ steel strap a "tire strap"?

Understood. About 40 tires ago (about a half dozen years ago or so), when I first started mounting and balancing tires at home, I left the Shrader valve in place - but now I habitually unscrew it before filling with a simple custom air gun that I made by replacing the tip with the proper fitting:

Hmm.... I don't know what that is, but my compressor is a 220VAC 20-gallon wheeled compressor with enough air to fill the tire if only I could seal it without needing a helper (or two in this case, which was the first time in two score tires that I needed a SECOND helper).

Yup. That's EXACTLY what I do with this simple fitting.

Sometimes I rubber band the trigger so the air is always flowing.

I need to buy these tire straps... or make the bazooka Clare mentioned, but while I have the same welding equipment everyone has, I really don't have the skills necessary to fabricate the bazooka from scratch.

Up until now, the one helper sufficed to push in the bead with me as I filled the tire with air - but this set took two helpers.

I just remembered in the last set, it was a bit difficult too, but I had attributed it to the fact I left the tape closing the bead on during storage for a few months.

It might simply be this set of tires is a bit "loose" which made sealing the bead just hard enough to require a second helper.

Without either a tire strap or a helper, I don't think seating these P227/75R15 light truck (SUV) tires can be easily done with just me and the air compressor so I am going to NEED a tire strap (or that bazooka!).

[Arlen G. Holder]

Hi Clare,

Thanks for helping me hone my tire mounting and balancing skills over the years.

As you know, we have high wear on the outside edge of the front tires:

So I bought multiple sets of tires, since everyone has the same problem:

I used the same tools and techniques for the first set as the second set:

That first set I mounted a few months ago by the uniformity based maximum radial force variation "red dot" high point - which takes priority if you still have the "dimple" on the steel rim indicating the low point of the rim - but I didn't have that dimple so I was matching to the wrong dot.

With this set of tires, given the low point match mounting marks on the steel wheel are no longer visible, I followed your advice and instead matched this set to the weight based light spot, by placing the "yellow dot" next to the tire valve:

The only problem was I needed two helpers to push the tire inward to seal for the final blast of air - where I never needed two people before - I only needed one additional person in the past - and where even the rope trick didn't work as the rope broke before the tire even bulged a bit inward.

Thank you for that video to hone my skills where I love that the guy is honest in the number of tries and methods that he tried, where, for example, at time point 72 he mentions that he used a block of wood to seal the bottom bead.

Interestingly, he doesn't lave the wheel/tire on the tire-changing jig like I do, where, instead of using helpers like I do, he puts the wheel/tire on the ground instead - and then he blasts the bead with his "bazooka"!

Without a helper (which is what I use), he seemed to be unsuccessful for about a dozen tries - but then I noticed he added two ratchet straps at time point 114 but was still unsuccessful (as was I - even with a helper):

At time point 125, he tries a vertical setup, but gives up quickly

He's finally successful at time point 135 at sealing the bead for air

where, admittedly, his truck tires are bigger than the comparatively puny P225/75R15 102S truck tires I'm working on.

One trick that is critical to note that he did but didn't note is the "lip" he welded onto his bazooka which is visible at time point 88 in the video

That lip is critical to keep the bead from "pinching" his bazooka since ANYTHING in the gap will be crushed instantly (the bazooka included) when the tire pops (I know this from experience using the flame & MAF cleaner).

That Union Local 57 video was hilarious! o It showed good old American ingenuity at its finest!

They also used a strap, but theirs was steel as shown at time 18

I love that this video, like the previous one, showed even the inevitable minor mistakes, such as forgetting to fill with water before welding at time point 151

and the unfortunate pressure leak at time point 270

But in the end, they were successful at time point 340

And, true to American ingenuity, they IMPROVED on the tool by adding a handle, gauge, and taller valving at time point 376

Before testing it as a weapons launcher & final painting for good looks!

The only thing they were missing was the tiny lip so that they could place the bazooka against the rim instead of against the tire when blasting.

[Arlen G. Holder]

Hi Terry Coombs,

I am not sure the rope works - at least not on these SUV truck tires.

Or, the rope has to be mighty strong to work on these light truck (SUV) tires, since I busted the climbing rope using a six-foot pipe for leverage as shown here where the picture was taken after a dozen or so turns:

Now THAT is an interesting idea!

I love that the idea DIRECTLY addresses the problem, which is that the air is leaking out faster than it's going in, so it blocks that outgoing air.

With various sized tires from 15 inch to 17 inch rims, I can see the sizing being an issue - but I have lots of spare garden hoses lying around to test.

I was wondering how to connect them without having brass in the middle!

As an experiment, I've tried it - and it does work, where I used carb cleaner and MAF cleaner but it's not really the way I want to do things.

I'd rather just have either the right technique or the right too. I like the ideas of the gardenhose/bicycle tube though as it might work.

[trader_4]

Silly me, I just pay $15 a tire to get them mounted and dynamically balanced. No fuss, no muss and no need for spraying MAF into a tire to create an explosion to try to seal the bead. Do they do that at the tire shop?

[Clare Snyder]

The bazooka is WAY more effective (and a lot simpler and safer) than the strap. Many high end tire machines have it built in. I have seen tire straps burst on radials - don't like them AT ALL. My farmer/fabricator friend built a "bazooka" for mounting wagon tires - works fantasic andcost him less than $30 Canadian - - -

[Tim+]

If you don’t like the idea of using flammable gas would one of these be the answer?

Technic 20 Litre Tyre Inflator 20L / 5 Gallon Bead Seater Air Blaster Booster Tool Tyre

Tim

[Clare Snyder]

That is the "bazooka" he talked about. Best solution - hands down.

[Arlen G. Holder]

Thanks Clare for that vote for the bazooka where your advice is always good advice, where you've helped me over the years, given your knowledge because you've actually done the job (as opposed to, oh, say, Trader_4 who always seems to be dead wrong on everything since he's actually never done anything we are talking about).

For example, you advised me well on using the bolt on tire valves:

And you helped advise me on what was wrong with my 1970's era chuck:

And, most importantly, both you and Xeno helped me UNDERSTAND what was causing the unusual outside wear on the front tires

due to the high camber scrub inherent in slow speed mountain turns

As for banding the tire to eliminate the need for helpers, the strap I used was a climbing rope, which broke after about a dozen turns, where the pipe "could" have been dangerous had it hit someone.

A ratchet would have been safer but I see from what you wrote that the bazooka is better.

After watching your videos, I noticed they both sealed the tire on the ground, so I will also try that (where all my attempts to date were to seal the tire while it was still mounted to the tire changer jig).

One of your videos used a block of wood UNDER the tire, while another video used another tire under the tire - both of which I will also try.

I do very much like the idea of the bazooka, where another poster on another ng (Tim+) kindly provided a great reference for, which I'll keep it in mind as it's always nice NOT to need helpers when mounting and balancing tires at home. Technic Tyre Inflator 20L/5 Gallon Bead Seater Air Blaster Booster

While having tires shipped home for convenient mounting and balancing is rewarding in and of itself, it's nice to know that the tools are available and at a cost which equates to just about a dozen tires, where the tools pay for themselves and start making money for us in just a couple of years, where they allow us the fun and convenience of being able to add tire mounting and balancing (and puncture repair) to our automotive maintenance & repair capabilities.

1. Dedicated bead Breaker (optional, about fifty bucks or so)
2. Tire Mounter (about fifty bucks or so, comes with a baby bead breaker)
3. Wheel Balancer (optional, about seventy five bucks or so)
4. Tire inflator blaster (about fifty to seventy-five bucks or so)

Total cost of tools that we wouldn't already have is about $250, which pays for itself after a couple of years, which for a typical household on our mountain roads would be only a couple of years.

But even better than saving money, is all the knowledge gleefully gained, where we can purchase, ship, dismount, mount, and balance our tires such that we have no discernible vibration at speed, and, even more importantly, we get to enjoy working on our cars at our own pace & convenience, knowing that the job is done well (don't even get me started on how tire shops skip critical steps because all they care about is how much time it takes).

[Arlen G. Holder]

I should be careful not to malign all tire shops, where, it's only "some" that cheat the customers.

For example, I've personally witnessed tire shops giving bad advice to customers (e.g., one told a customer in front of me who had brakes done that they "needed" new tires because the wear bars were within 2/32" of the legal limit - which means they lied to that customer - whom I pulled aside and advised that it's a lie that they told her).

In another case, I watched the tire shop inflate ALL tires on ALL vehicles to the same PSI (they didn't even KNOW what it was when I asked).

And I've seen them pry off my BBS hubcaps they don't bother using the $5 tool.

I've seen them torque all lug nuts (mine are bolts) to the same torque, which, again, they didn't even KNOW what it was - they just torque ALL wheels to the same spec.

They didn't know the bimmer I had brought in has a specification that is different for the fronts versus the rears on tire pressure (they just pressurize all passenger car tires to the same psi).

They didn't even know how to match mount the tires by the dots, since they simply use the Hunter wheel balancing machine - which - one could argue - is OK given that it will take into account mismatches - but - where - at least theoretically - they would use the least amount of weight if they simply bothered to match mount.

I've seen them NOT remove the old wheel weights (particularly, again, on my BBS wheels since they're stick-on weights attached to the inside), and certainly they don't spend the time to clean up the rim as well as you might, at home.

The fact is that people who don't know how to mount and balance tires don't even NOTICE how many things tire shops do wrong, but I'm not going to say ALL tire shops skip all these steps ... but certainly I've seen many that do.

My photos were, I'm told, instrumental in getting Midas kicked out of the Tire Rack list of recommended retailers, for example, when I documented them breaking just about every rule there is for mounting tires professionally.

Having said that, the main reason you mount and balance tires at home is because you like home maintenance and repair, where it just FEELS GOOD to have the power to mount and balance your own tires anytime you want to in the convenience of your own garage, where, in the end, you KNOW the job is done right every step of the way - and if FEELS GOOD to have done it yourself.

What feels good is o Knowing HOW to purchase great tires on the net o At great prices, shipped to your home o Then being able to dismount the old tires whenever you want to o And being able to mount & balance the new tires at your convenience o And, being able to properly patchplug a repair whenever you need to

While for some people (like trader_4, this is too much thinking), for me, all this convenience, learning, and utility ... is just plain fun.

Hence, I thank you for helping me learn how to do the job even better!

[Arlen G. Holder]

Thanks for the purposefully helpful advice, which mirror what Clare suggested, and he's never been wrong (just look at the great stuff he found out for how to properly choose brake pads by the numbers, for example).

Your advice (and that of Clare, Xeno, and others who have changed tires) is what makes this newsgroup so rewarding for all concerned.

Searching for American sources, that bead blaster seems pretty common

With prices being roughly around $70 to about $115 US dollars, which is fine for this type of tool, given each tire mounting and balancing sequence (for five tires) costs about $100 which is done around once a year. pm average. assuming you have a few vehicles in your household like most Americans do.

Doing the obligatory 50-year math... o Over 50 years, that's about $5,000 spent on tire mounting & balancing o With a cost of, oh, say $300 for tools, that cost drops to $4,700

However, the main reason for doing ANY automotive maintenance & repair job at home isn't so much that you always save lots of money - but that you LEARN a lot (e.g., you learn how to purchase tires by the numbers) - and you ENJOY a lot (it's just sheer joy to have the power to fix stuff at home), and you do it RIGHT (since time isn't your concern while at a shop, time is a critical concern of theirs) - and most importantly - you do it when you feel like doing it at your CONVENIENCE (which is a lot of fun).

One more thing that you GAIN by DIY maintenance & repair is that you can do MORE of it ...

For example, on our mountain, we all burn though front tires on their outside edges

due to what Xeno & Clare have explained is likely camber scrub: where the effect is noticeable on front tires in a few thousand miles and, where close observation shows the effect in only hundreds of miles such that one side of the tire is worn while the other half is fine and where frequent tire rotation only resolves half the problem Since the tire is still rotating in the same direction on the wheel.

While there are amelioration techniques that Xeno & Clare have outlined such as lessening positive front caster, the wear is due to the un-natural positive camber that the inside wheel takes on sharp turns:

such that the inside front wheel outside corner takes the brunt of it meaning there's only so much you can play with in terms of home alignment given it's always going to wear the outside edge of the front tires

The simplest solution, which most people never do, would be to FLIP the wheels on the rim at the normal 5,000 mile rotation point.

If you don't know how to flip a tire on the rim in a few minutes, you likely won't do it, since it would cost $20 per rotation which is $100 just to flip the tires (even Costco charges for flipping tires on the rim, even if you bought the tires from them and had them initially mount them).

Since it would cost more than the tires to flip them every 5000 miles on the rim, doing the work at home is not only fun and convenient, but, doing the work at home means you will be saving tires from the landfill which is the environmental friendly thing to do.

In summary, not only is it fun and convenient to DIY at home, but it enables you to minimize the impact on the environment because you can do things that few people would do if they couldn't do them easily at home.

[Xeno]

Yes, Clare's point is well made re straps and belted/steel belted radials. The belt reduces the tread flexibility somewhat making the task more difficult. That said, I have always managed to get tyres inflated using the proper designed for purpose tyre strap.

Steel straps might be dangerous in case of breakage.

Standard tyre gauge/inflator of the type you get with cheapo compressors and at cheapo automotive stores. Always too restrictive on air flow.

In the case of my friend, I told him to use the air control valve on the compressor in order to get a sufficiently large and *sudden* blast of air.

I always inflate with the tyre flat on the ground. The rim should be in roughly in the central position between tyre beads. Might need to position the rim on a couple of pieces of wood to achieve this on some tyres. I have sometimes found it prudent to start the bead on one side onto the rim, usually the rear, then flip the tyre/rim over and the downward force on the rim brings the upper bead close to, if not touching, the upper rim. It can be a frustrating exercise sometimes but I have never been forced to resort to extreme measures like explosive gases.

In days of yore, I used to stretch the beads apart with a tyre spreader;

Not the same as the type I used but should be Ok. Just work around the tyre spreading it apart and hope it retains some spread when released. That used to work in the days of stiff tyre sidewalls but may be a tad iffish in this era of limp radial sidewalls. If nothing else, it's a handy tool for spreading tyres in order to check for damage to the inner carcase.

[Clare Snyder]

The only advantage to doing it on the ground is the "Bazooka" is heavy and clumsy

For roughly $60 pretty hard to make your own - - - -