I'm confused - but I have an appointment tomorrow for tires to be mounted
- and - I'm confused which two of the four dots should line up:
Both documents below say US wheel manufacturers and tire manufacturers
are *required* to mark the "low spot" and "high spot" respectively.
On the back of my stock 16" BMW (BBS) rims, is this nick painted white,
which I presume is the marked "low spot" (which, you may notice, is not
at the valve stem):
Yet, on the tires, I see both a red dot and a yellow dot!
RED = (apparently the) high point of radial runout on the tire
YELLOW = (apparently the) light point (with respect to balance) on the tire
So, that makes FOUR separate spots, two on the wheel and two on the tire:
1. Wheel valve stem
2. Wheel white nick (presumably that's the low spot
3. Tire red dot (presumably that's the high spot)
4. Tire yellow dot (presumably that's the light point)
OK. Now what should I tell the installer to line up?
Q1: What two spots (of those four) should line up?
Q2: Should they remove all these weights first?
On Sunday, July 14, 2013 10:15:52 PM UTC-5, blue bmw wrote:
- and - I'm confused which two of the four dots should line up: http://i43
.tinypic.com/dcfrea.jpg Both documents below say US wheel manufacturers and
tire manufacturers are *required* to mark the "low spot" and "high spot" r
7 http://www.motor.com/article.asp?article_ID 04 On the back of my stoc
k 16" BMW (BBS) rims, is this nick painted white, which I presume is the ma
rked "low spot" (which, you may notice, is not at the valve stem): http://i
42.tinypic.com/24w54cj.jpg Yet, on the tires, I see both a red dot and a ye
llow dot! RED = (apparently the) high point of radial runout on the tire
YELLOW = (apparently the) light point (with respect to balance) on the ti
re So, that makes FOUR separate spots, two on the wheel and two on the tire
: 1. Wheel valve stem 2. Wheel white nick (presumably that's the low spot 3
. Tire red dot (presumably that's the high spot) 4. Tire yellow dot (presum
ably that's the light point) OK. Now what should I tell the installer to li
ne up? Q1: What two spots (of those four) should line up? Q2: Should they r
emove all these weights first?
If this will be done by a tire shop, they should know what to do!!!
On Sun, 14 Jul 2013 20:22:24 -0700, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
The problem is they don't care - and - if I don't tell them what to do,
they won't do it.
Proof is that they torque all cars to 100 foot pounds (just ask them);
and they put in the same air pressure in all four tires (BMW doesn't
spec it that way); and the alignment shops don't add 500 pounds of weight
(BMW does spec it that way); and they rotate the tires (BMW doesn't
spec out a rotation), etc.
Point is, the guy installing tires, in my humble experience, may or
may not know how.
Sure, you'd *think* they'd know - but - I've asked them in the past
and had to show them articles on how to mount them - but I've never
seen both the red dot and the yellow dot on the same tire nor the
valve stem not being the corresponding spot on the wheels.
So, in summary - the tire installers do *not* care about properly installing
tires (just like the alignment guys don't add the required 500 pounds of weight,
150 in the driver seat, 150 in the passenger seat, 150 in the back seat, and
50 in the rear (plus a full tank of gas, new'ish tires, and proper air pressure).
They don't care. So, we must be armed beforehand with the knowledge.
Isn't that what this group is all about?
You drive BMW and not going to the dealer? And how come you go to a tire
shop you don't trust? My friend has a year old M5, all service is does
by local dealer always Period. My kid drives late Subaru WRX STI
very souped up one. He only goes to tuner shop for any service. If the
shop screw up their reputation is at stake. Once they did a fuel line
work and when son came home I noticed fuel leak in the garage(one O ring
was not properly seated) When phoned they sent flat bed tow truck,
they did not want the car to be driven for fear of fire.
They redid the work with no charge and profuse apology for inconvenience
caused. After all they are the one who tuned the car top to bottom
including set of summer and winter tires.
If you don't want to take your BMW to a tire shop you can't trust then
you should drive something like CBMWs are very precision machine that is
why they are expensive. Me? I just drive Acura which the dealer does
all the schedule routine maintenance. Never had any problem.
If I want BMW I'd lease one and beat the hell out of it and return it
when lease is up. That's best way to drive a car like that. Keeping it
long and in shape, it is pouring resources to bottomless can..... New
ones are not like old ones either.
Tried Bimmer user forum?
On Sun, 14 Jul 2013 22:54:25 -0600, Tony Hwang wrote:
What kind of stereotype is that?
A BMW is just a car.
And, ummmm... you know what they call the dealer?
Hint: It starts with "st".
Only a moron goes to the dealer, and even then, only because
it makes that moron feel better to pay more. They love to brag
how they go to the (st)...ealer for all their maintenance. It
makes *them* feel important.
I've *never* found a tire shop I could trust.
They *all* torque the lug bolts to the same for all cars.
They *all* use air tools (for speed) and only check torque
after the fact (when the bolts no longer turn, which means
it's too late).
They *all* put the same tire pressure in all four tires.
None of them match mount unless you force them to.
Your friend is spending far more money than most people
for far less service. But, the coffee is free, the lounge
air conditioned, and the service manager all smiles!
Ummmm... why not just answer the question?
If you don't know the answer to the question, that's OK,
but, why not just say so?
I won't say what I'm thinking! :)
A BMW is simply a car. Are you falling for all the marketing
braggadocio? It's a nice handling car. But, it's just a car.
There's nothing special about it (except the marketing is
fantastic. It has people *thinking* it's special). That's a
great feat - but - for those who understand it (I bought mine
new), it's just a car. Like any other car.
Specifically, it has wheels. Like any other car has wheels.
The question remains:
Does *anyone* on this newsgroup actually know how to properly
mount a tire with respect to the dots?
I've read the articles - but it's confusing when there is both
a red dot and a yellow dot. I'm hoping I'm not the only one on
this planet who thinks about this stuff ahead of time.
Eh? Two completely different cars. BMW (at least up until a couple
years ago) was for people who liked to drive, a MB was for people who
just want a more "upscale" car. (in quotes because they're upscale in
the US, but not necessarily everywhere else in the world.)
Unfortunately from what I hear the new 3 series is not as engaging to
drive as the old one, but I haven't driven one myself yet...
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
I've had this bimmer for more than a decade, and, in very many
ways, Joe Bro is right. It's a POS when it comes to the plastic
cooling expansion tank and radiator neck blowing up; the DISA
valve being sucked into the intake manifold destroying your
exhaust valves; the stock VANOS seals being made out of nitrile
rubber instead of Viton; the $1000 Hella fiber-optic headlights
whose PBT plastic headlight adjusters crumble on every bimmer
over time due to forseeable heat inside the headlight; the cheapness
of BMW positioning the Bosch 5.7 ABS control module right next to
the exhaust manifold (to save on wires and tubes) so that it fries
on almost every 5-series, 3-series, and 7-series bimmer over time;
the cheap recycled rubber gasket around the windshields crumbling
to dust in just a few years; the stingy application of adhesive
on the door vapor barriers so that water invariably leaks into
every single bimmer's back seat over time; the idiotic seat motor
wires which cause seat twist eventually in all bimmers; the cheap
yet fancy window regulators whose clamps fall off their cables
in almost every bimmer over time; (and I could go on).
Yet, while the bimmer *is* a POS with respect to quality, it does
handle rather well.
So, like everything else, a bimmer is a trade off between superb
handling and safety, and POS component quality.
But, let's get back to the point please.
From the match-mounting articles, after reading the dozen references
on match mounting, I *think* this is the algorithm:
1. If you have steel wheels with match mounting marks, and red dots
on the tires, mount the match mounting mark to the red dot.
2. If you have steel wheels without match mounting marks, and red dots
on the tires, mount the valve stem to the red dot.
3. If you have steel wheels without match mounting dots, and no red dots
on the tires, then mount the valve stem to the yellow dot.
4. However, if you have aluminum wheels, and red dots on the tires,
then mount the valve stem to the red dot.
5. Likewise, if you have aluminum wheels, and no red dots on the tires,
then mount the valve stem to the yellow dot.
All this works fine *if* there are no match mounting marks on the aluminum
wheels. But *mine* have (what appears to be) match mounting marks.
Unfortunately, NONE of the articles mentions what to do in the case of
aluminum rims with an existing match mounting mark.
I have a call in to BBS which hasn't been returned yet:
if you've read the articles, then it should be clear. if it's not, then
go to a professional that makes a living doing this stuff and pay them
to do it right. if you don't know enough to know if they're doing it
right or not - see first line above - then you don't have any right to
complain. and certainly don't have a leg to stand on bleating about it
On Tue, 16 Jul 2013 18:02:30 -0700, jim beam wrote:
Even the professionals don't know, as I asked Midas to put the
dots in the proper place and they said they didn't even know
what the dots meant (the manager said he had never ever even
seen the dots before - he said it's the first tire he's ever seen
that has them).
Also, the articles are (in some ways) mutually incompatible.
Therefore, it's not as simple as reading the articles; nor as
simple as having a professional do it (as they care more about
making money and churning customers than installing tires
If it was that simple, I would never have asked in the first
On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 07:38:19 -0700, jim beam wrote:
This is true.
Apparently MIDAS also is "Tire Kingdom", "Big O Tires",
NTB Tire Center, Service Central, and Merchants.
All of those are run by the same company.
Clearly they are not professional.
The question is, WHO IS professional when it comes to
installing tires on aluminum wheels?
I told you already, you need to tell us where you live.
Chain shops are just as hit and miss as everyone else, the sign over the
door is no guarantee that the guy *at that location* is in any way
competent. You need someone with local knowledge to tell you where the
good guy works. Getting tapped in to your local (presumably in your
case BMW) car club/group is probably the best way, or ask on some
enthusiast forums if nobody here is in your area.
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
On Tue, 16 Jul 2013 18:02:30 -0700, jim beam wrote:
I'm going to have to put you in the killfile simply because you
argue like a fifteen year old.
And, you know the rule. Don't argue with a ... because they will bring
you to ... and in the end ... they'll win ... due to their experience.
Point is, I have read the articles. You clearly have not.
Some clearly say how to match mount; others are less clear; and others
conclude it only matters for OEM.
All say that if you want to match mount, you mount the red dot to the
match-mounting mark on steel wheels and to the valve stem on aluminum
The part you fail to understand is that the tire shops are the ones
who don't install the tires correctly. They're the ones who need to
read this literature. Not us. (I've already read all the articles
that are known to this newsgroup and posted on this thread.)
On Monday, July 15, 2013 1:21:37 AM UTC-4, blue bmw wrote:
Seems like you're falling for it hook, line, and sinker.
A BMW is just a car. Why do you need the tires lined up so specifically, or the lugs torqued just so, or the air pressures a certain way?
After all, IT'S JUST A CAR! You said it yourself.
If you want BMW-recommended service, don't take it to Joe Schmoe's Garage. Take it somewhere that specializes in BMW, or a BMW dealer.
BTW: This is a HOME IMPROVEMENT group!
You do realize that was posted in the original list of
references that were sent to me via email by Ken Tener of
Tire Rack (and posted here as one of the 7 Internet references
on how to perform proper tire wheel match mounting).
On Thu, 18 Jul 2013 19:02:40 +0000 (UTC), blue bmw
So do you disagree with
"We have found that the only way to accurately match mount replacement
tires on used original or new aftermarket wheels is to use Hunter tire
balancers which have the ability to measure wheel runout and tire
force variations under load before the tire and wheel are installed on
the vehicle. Using these machines, a colored dot might be positioned
anywhere on the wheel relative to each wheel's runout measurement. In
the end, the markers have little, if any, relevance when replacement
tires are installed."
Are you bringing new OEM rims and tires to the shop?
If not, Tirerack says the dots are meaningless, and the Hunter does
the "match mounting."
And the Hunter will do the same for all OEM.
Tirerack fails to note one thing.
"True match mounting" will entail measuring all 4 rims and tires for
the car, then matching each tire to the rim best suited to it.
This will minimize weights.
But it will also require dismounting and remounting some tires after
the measurements are made. It may minimize weights, but will still be
imperfect, because any rim can distort and change the tire measurement
taken on it.
It's really an exercise in futility without endless dismounting and
remounting to further refine measurements. And the dismounting and
remounting will further increase distortions of measurement.
So you'll never get close to perfection.
You want to pay for this endless nonsense? You can find somebody to
satisfy that urge. Up to you. Yellow pages.
I'll say it once more. Take it to a shop that sells and balances a
lot of tires with a Hunter. Stay out of their hair. Don't mention
dots. Take it for a spin at whatever speed you desire. If you get
vibration, take it back to the shop for rebalance.
It's really that simple.
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