On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 14:47:18 +0000, Doug Miller wrote:
I guess it depends on what *you* mean by quality.
For example, they make the DISA flap valve out of plastic.
Do you know what happens what that plastic wears, and the
metal pin falls out, and gets ingested by the intake manifold?
Another example is that they make the headlight adjusters out
of PBT plastic. Do you realize what happens to every plastic
headlight adjuster after just a few years of that plastic baking
in the $1,000 Hella headlamp housing?
Another example are the o-rings inside the VANOS assembly.
Do you know what happens to every buna-N rubber o-ring exposed
to hot oil day in and day out?
Another example is the CCV valve. And the Bosch 5.7 ABS control
module. And the recycled plastic of the windshield cover molding.
And the Kuster window regulators. And the lack of adhesive on the
door vapor barriers. And the rubber-filled thrust arm bushings.
The worst quality issue of all are the Behr/Nissens/Hella expansion
tanks and radiators. I don't know how Toyota can build a plastic
radiator that lasts for years, while the Germans can't build one
to last two years - but the proof is simply that there probably
isn't a single BMW E38, E39, or E46 that hasn't had the entire
cooling system replaced at least once, and most are twice.
If you still think the Germans care about quality, you'll have
to convince me you understand what I wrote above - and then you'll
have to explain how those (all extremely well known issues that
happen to almost all BMW E39s, E38s, and E46's) aren't quality
Point is, the Germans care about performance; not about quality.
On Tue, 16 Jul 2013 18:02:43 -0700, jim beam wrote:
I think you missed the point.
Some owners are shallow, and mainly care about looks.
Others are more concrete who deeply care about performance handling.
Absolutely none are expecting reliability nor quality of components.
Both types exist; neither of which buys the vehicle
for reliability, so, your point doesn't even make sense
because it shows you are using "your" mentality on a
vehicle which you would never buy.
Think about being in someone else's shoes, and you'll be
For reliability, both BMW & non-BMW owners agree:
- Buy a Honda or Toyota.
All this is OT since the topic is proper tire mounting.
On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 03:15:52 +0000 (UTC), blue bmw
Those dots are unscientific and meaningless.
Get your tires balanced by a shop that does road force balancing.
The operator won't pay any attention to the dots.
If he's good, you'll be good.
If not, take it back.
On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 06:26:38 +0000 (UTC), blue bmw
With road force balancing the procedure is to turn the tire on the rim
it's mounted on, to where the least weight has to be used to strike
the balance. Whether the guy knows how to do it properly, or wants to
do it properly instead of just using more weights is unknown.
You just can't control everything, so get used to it.
The dots are manufacturing QC only, to minimize bad batches, and
nobody properly balancing tires pays any attention to the tire dots,
because the rims may have a different balance point. And that could
be at a point other than the valve stem.
It's a crap shoot. So just pick a good balancing shop. If you feel
bad vibes, take it back and have them redo it.
Usually it's good the first time, but I've had to take my vehicles
back a couple times. They rebalanced the problem wheels at no extra
On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 03:20:56 -0500, Vic Smith wrote:
I agree that nobody pays attention to the dots and match-mounting
marks - but I do not agree that this is the *proper* way to install
a tire (by ignoring those marks).
The dots are there to allow proper tire installation on the rim.
Both the rim and dots are required by law (according to the references
I previously quoted).
All I'm asking is what the proper way is to align those marks.
I do have a call to BBS, and they called me back - so I'm working
with them as we speak to determine what that match mounting mark
means on my BBS rims.
The guys I spoke to didn't know if BMW does anything different at
the factory, as they only handled the USA BBS wheels - so - they
forwarded my questions over to Germany.
Still - the answer won't arrive in time for *my* tires to be mounted
properly - and that's sad that you can't trust any tire professional
to mount a passenger tire properly. :(
On Monday, July 15, 2013 10:51:29 AM UTC-4, blue bmw wrote:
Since this issue appears to be of the utmost importance to you, have you co
nsidered cancelling the appointment until you have the answer and/or found
a tire shop that you trust implicitly?
I realize that there may be valid scheduling issues that you have to deal w
ith, e.g. leaving for a 1000 road trip at 8 AM tomorrow therefore you need
new tires mounted today. Absent something like that, why rush into a mounti
ng appointment that is going to eat away at you until the next you have to
have tires mounted?
On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 08:52:00 -0700, DerbyDad03 wrote:
No shop is trustworthy.
I need the tires installed.
At the moment, that's what I have (and nothing more).
My spare is just a rim with an open Schrader valve.
And, NONE of the four mounted tires are balanced.
Plus, I suspect they damaged the rims (but I can not
prove it, although I snapped photos and will send them
to tire rack).
BTW, I have heard it all where people go to a shop and then
complain that the shop installed tires and made the engine
light go on or some other circumstantial bs - so - I told
the manager at the shop at the time - and I told Tire Rack
and I'm telling you - I have absolutely no proof how the two
wheels got damaged - but - I can tell everyone that I checked
visually all four wheels (to mark the match-mounting points)
and I never knew they were damaged if they were at that time.
I also proved to everyone that the installer was sloppy, careless,
and unprofessional, in quite a few ways (e.g., prying off the BBS
twist-off hubcaps, putting the wrong torque, wrong air pressure,
dropping the lug bolts, leaving wheel weights on, not cleaning
the mud on the inside wheel, etc. - that I "suspect" (without
proof) that they damaged the wheels in the process.
That's why I told them I was leaving, as to prevent further
On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 02:54:15 -0500, Vic Smith wrote:
Motor magazine article on match mounting for aluminum wheels:
"OE tire suppliers are *required* to mark a tire’s radial runout
high point, and OE wheel makers are *required* to mark a wheel’s
radial runout low point."
Tire Rack article on match mounting:
"Original Equipment (OE) tire suppliers are *required* to mark the
tire's "high point" while OE wheel manufacturers mark the wheel's
Notice the OE and OEM? This is required ONLY on tires and wheels sold
to auto manufacturers to be installed as the vehicles are made.
Look at tires that are not sold as an OEM tire and you usually won't
find marks. Especially on house brands and LT tires.
On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 12:44:32 -0400, Steve W. wrote:
I understand what you're saying.
What you're saying is that the marks on the wheel are for OE mounting.
And, I tend to agree with you (although I'd like to hear that from BBS
or BMW directly).
But, even so, they're STILL supposed to install the marked tires properly.
And, my tires clearly had the red and yellow dots.
And, just as clearly, you remove about 1/2 an ounce of aluminum when you
drill the valve stem hole, and you put in about 1.2 ounces (the actual
ounces are in the references I provided), so you're net heavy at that spot.
So, they _should_ have, at the very least, mounted the red dots next to
the valve stems.
Out of the five tires/wheels touched, guess how many have the red dots
next to the valve stem?
On most vehicles made recently the valve stem weight is already taken
into account when the rim is made. With the OEM stem in place the wheel
will be balanced. On old steel wheels with a weld joint where the rim
was welded you had low spots. Most modern rims run much truer thanks to
the machining that is done and current manufacturing methods. The only
real problems I see with aluminum rims is from people hitting
holes/curbs or road debris. Most also tell you they won't pay to have
the rim trued or replaced.
The dot telling you the "high spot" on a tire is actually telling you
where the inner belt plies overlap causing a thicker casing in that area.
Oh and you could have a perfectly balanced tire and still have vibration
as a result of an unbalanced rotor or drum, axle runout or something
like binding CV joints.
If you REALLY want a true, balanced tire hit the salt flats during speed
trials. Watch the guys who work on those tires.
First they balance every rotating part of the drive train, Then they
will true up and balance the rim, then install a tire and shave it so it
is perfectly round, Then they balance it installed on the vehicle.
Price used to be about 100 bucks per tire installed.
On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 17:58:51 -0400, Steve W. wrote:
That may be true, but not a single one of the match mounting references
Do you have a reference we can read that says the wheel is balanced
all by itself, even with a valve stem attached into a drilled hole?
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