Which of these 4 spots (2 on tire, 2 on wheel) are supposed to be lined up?

[Vic Smith]

So do you disagree with "We have found that the only way to accurately match mount replacement tires on used original or new aftermarket wheels is to use Hunter tire balancers which have the ability to measure wheel runout and tire force variations under load before the tire and wheel are installed on the vehicle. Using these machines, a colored dot might be positioned anywhere on the wheel relative to each wheel's runout measurement. In the end, the markers have little, if any, relevance when replacement tires are installed."

Are you bringing new OEM rims and tires to the shop? If not, Tirerack says the dots are meaningless, and the Hunter does the "match mounting." And the Hunter will do the same for all OEM. Tirerack fails to note one thing. "True match mounting" will entail measuring all 4 rims and tires for the car, then matching each tire to the rim best suited to it. This will minimize weights. But it will also require dismounting and remounting some tires after the measurements are made. It may minimize weights, but will still be imperfect, because any rim can distort and change the tire measurement taken on it. It's really an exercise in futility without endless dismounting and remounting to further refine measurements. And the dismounting and remounting will further increase distortions of measurement. So you'll never get close to perfection. You want to pay for this endless nonsense? You can find somebody to satisfy that urge. Up to you. Yellow pages. I'll say it once more. Take it to a shop that sells and balances a lot of tires with a Hunter. Stay out of their hair. Don't mention dots. Take it for a spin at whatever speed you desire. If you get vibration, take it back to the shop for rebalance. It's really that simple.

[blue bmw]

Michelin actually *does* explain clearly how to install tires based on match mounting marks and on the red dot.

It was on page 32 of the 8th reference, already posted, which was a Michelin certification class in professionally installing tires in critical applications.

[Vic Smith]

Wait. Is your BMW an airplane?

[blue bmw]

Actually, this is one point stated so far that *is* valid about bimmers (which shows you're a rare person here who *understands* what he is saying) ...

If you know the dozen (or so) things to look out for, and you replace or repair them periodically, then the E39 (which is what I own) M54 engine *is* a very reliable vehicle!

But - you'd have to: a) Replace the plastic DISA valve with Gary's titanium replica b) Replace the PBT Hella adjusters with EAC's aluminum replica c) Replace the entire Behr cooling system with Zionsville aluminum d) Replace the Graf composite water pump with Stewart metal impellers e) Rebuild the Bosch 5.7 ABS control module (resolder power wires) f) Replace the Kuster nylon window regulator rollers with SS rollers etc.

Note: Very few people here actually seem to know what they're talking about. And that's sad. At least you seem to, which is good.

[blue bmw]

You missed the point that Michelin DOES dot mark and the statement above that Michelin doesn't dot mark.

I was responding specifically to the quote "they don't dot mark". I proved *they* (i.e., Michelin) clearly do dot mark.

It took two seconds to prove that statement. It would simply take longer to find a similar reference for automotive tires - but there is no need - because clearly Michelin *does* dot mark.

[Eddie Powalski]

hey jb why do you just make this stuff up? just view runout and match mounting at

[Doug Miller]

blue bmw wrote in news:ks9ic7$mhd$ [e-mail]:

Speaking of not making sense... I didn't say that.

Idiot.

[Doug Miller]

blue bmw wrote in news:ks9i3n$mhd$ [e-mail]:

Which part of "home repair" is confusing to you?

[blue bmw]

You said my comment was irrational.

Then you agreed that expecting correct torque is rational.

You can't have it both ways.

[Tegger]

blue bmw wrote in news:ks9dia$mhd$ [e-mail]:

Not a whole lot.

[Doug Miller]

blue bmw wrote in news:ks9sat$mhd$ [e-mail]:

Hmph. I notice you snipped the part where you claimed I said something that I didn't.

No, I said that aligning a set of meaningless dots is irrational.

Yes.

Sure I can -- there are good and valid engineering reasons for torquing fasteners to a particular tightness and no tighter, and expecting that is perfectly rational. That's not the case with your silly tire dots, which are there only to delude the weak-minded into believing that they're actually doing something important to improve vehicle performance. I'd bet a hundred bucks that you can't tell the difference behind the wheel.

[jim beam]

no, he wants it the straight way. you're resorting to wriggling and squirming because the facts don't suit you.

[jim beam]

you're good as assessing technical competence on usenet as you are in tire shops!

[jim beam]

i /love/ sleepers. people driving flash motors with "arrest me" written all over them need their head testing.

[jim beam]

true. i just drive on airfields.

[jim beam]

that's the risk you run, but i'd rather that personally than have them run all over town making up stories about whether or not you can do your job. but this started out as a way to discourage jerks, so it's all academic unless you have the ability to spot them first. if they're a jerk and they run their mouth, chances are, only other jerks will listen.

[jim beam]

and yet i've bought 10 brand new factory fresh michelin tires in the last 3 years - not a single dot. but you'd know this is you'd bothered to check your facts.

[jim beam]

you're twisting the facts. you quoted an installation guide for aircraft tires - ones that have dots on them. michelin car tires, even their high end pilot series, don't have them. i've checked my facts on this. you're just wriggling and squirming.

[jim beam]

as i've said before, i've bought 10 new michelins in the last 3 years -

4 pilots, 2 harmonies and 4 defenders - none have dots.

[kannabislecter]

Hey, tire technician here. I have been doing tires for about 9 years and mo st shops I have worked for do like you said. Simply mount and balance the t ires and set all air to 35 for most vehicles. Most dealers do the same tho. The tire shops and dealers tend to rotate employees from one to another in most areas it seems. The kid mounting your tire probably makes minimum wag e and had about as much training as the kid making your cheeseburger at McD onald's. So he's just doing what he was trained to do to get cars out as qu ick as possible. Most people don't take the care you do and just want it do ne quick. As for your question, The red dot takes priority because it's the run out of the tire and has thicker tread here which can cause the tire to "hop" in tire tech terms. The yellow dot is the light piont of the tire an d simply makes it easier to balance if placed correctly. The dimple on your rim is the low point of the rim run out, if there's no dimple use the valv e stem, as they tend to stamp the valve stem out at the low point. So match ing the red dot to the dimple will give the best tire/wheel spin... in theo ry. These are just guidelines to make an experienced tire tech's life a lit tle easier and by no means guarantee the best results. Some tires just have a yellow dot, or none at all. As someone else posted, if you are concerned about the best possible mount you need to have the road force measured. It can be a little more expensive, and will add a good 45 min to an hour to t he tire job at least. To be honest it's completely unnecessary with most wh eels and tires unless you have a vibration that persists after they have be en balanced normally. Most shops only have 1 road force balancer if any. BM Ws, in my experience, have very little run out on the stock wheels if they have no damage. Even a mediocre tech will check for obvious run out in the wheel, such as bent or warped wheels. And also for any obvious tire hop as this is a sign of an "out of round" tire or even a separation of the inner belts. Sometimes tires have manufacturer defects and techs generally check for these. A good tire tech would see any significant tire hop while checki ng for these things. I would watch them when they balance if you are worrie d about them taking shortcuts. If they don't look closely at the wheel when it spins on the balancer call them on it. Say "hey what did the run out on that wheel and tire look like?" before they even pull it off the balancer. They will most likely check it then right in front of you, and possibly ev en show you the run out if you would like to see it yourself. When a tire h as a bad spin it usually has a bad balance too. If they put more than 3 oz on either side of the wheel ask them to road force it. If they put more tha n 4-5 oz total ask them to road force it. Rule of thumb is less weight mean s better spin in most cases. I've had Bmws balance with less than an oz of weights. Even none at all before, it just depends on the wheel and tire, no ne of which are ever "Perfect". Good luck! Hope this helps someone. I know this is probably an old thread. I confess I didn't look at the date, just w anted to share some of my mostly useless tire knowledge. ;)