OMG, you went to Midas!!! Last time I was at a Midas I had a shouting match with the manager when he insisted he had to machine my brand new Discs in order to install the replacement "lifetime" pads that had worn out in about 20,000 miles. He refused to put the pads on and I refused to pay to have new rotors machined. My "free lifetime replacement" was going to cost about $60 and shave life off my brand new rotors. It's always good when the waiting room has a lot of customers in it when you are explaining to the manager what a bunch of crooks they are. He wanted me out and refunded the original cost of the pads. Last time I will EVER go to a Midas. That location went out of business a few years later.
Maybe it's my fault for assuming that putting tires on is a commodity. Clearly, this Midas, wasn't worth the cost.
The good news is that Tire Rack removed them from the recommended installer program, but it was just this one shop so that's not all that much of a positive result.
Tire Rack said it would be six months at least before they're allowed back on.
I'm not trying to argue with you. I read your OP and responded to it by reading the cited articles and raising the obvious point that the articles view the dots as not helpful.
Seven references? I went back to your OP and looked for this. You have 2 references to articles and 2 photos. Perhaps you have written a post with these seven references but I did not read it. I've only looked at your original post and a few replies.
Since you did not cite these articles I did not read them. I still haven't. I've no opinion on them.
Let's start over. You have an interest, for some reason, in "match-mounting" tires on a car. You have researched this and found that the "experts" disagree. Not surprising, experts often disagree. You wish advice. You come to a Home Repair newsgroup. Why? No offense but the posters here, while they may have opinions are probably not experts. I had never heard of match-marking until I read your post. In thinking about it, I don't get it. Sounds like a fad to me. Honestly I doubt you will get expert advice here. My opinion is not expert advice. You have observed that the local tire shop does not seem to use match-marking. This suggests to me that they are happy with their current practice for balancing and (a very important point) ttheir customers seem happy, too. I doubt that they would refuse to align the dots per your instructions while mounting and balancing your tires. So, we're back where we began. You need to know what dots to align. Here's a plan. Decide what tires you wish to buy, get the tire manufacturer's recommendation on match-mounting those tires. E-mail makes this stuff easy.
or michelin. michelin are the most high tech tire manufacturer in the world and they don't dot-mark because it's a pointless exercise. particularly if, as you say, the wheel's actually been used.
if you've read the articles, then it should be clear. if it's not, then go to a professional that makes a living doing this stuff and pay them to do it right. if you don't know enough to know if they're doing it right or not - see first line above - then you don't have any right to complain. and certainly don't have a leg to stand on bleating about it here.
Hmmm, I never came across so much bitching on a stupid little car/tire issue. We better shut down this thread which is not much useful for any one. Went to Midas shop? No wonder.
Even the professionals don't know, as I asked Midas to put the dots in the proper place and they said they didn't even know what the dots meant (the manager said he had never ever even seen the dots before - he said it's the first tire he's ever seen that has them).
Also, the articles are (in some ways) mutually incompatible.
Therefore, it's not as simple as reading the articles; nor as simple as having a professional do it (as they care more about making money and churning customers than installing tires correctly).
If it was that simple, I would never have asked in the first place.
Clearly they were incompetent. I don't know about stupid. IMHO, all tire installers are incompetent, or lazy, or both.
The proof is merely in watching what they do, e.g.,
- wheel cover removal (if yours requires tools)
- torque of lug bolts (or lug nuts for those who have them)
- tire pressure (differential front and rear for those who have them)
- removal of previous weights
- cleaning of caked-on dirt on the inside of the rim
- etc.
I'd wager that 90% of the tires installed today are installed properly WITH RESPECT TO the combination of those things above all being done correctly.
IMHO, the only one who *thinks* their tires are installed properly is someone who doesn't know how they're supposed to be installed in the first place.
I can *only* speak for *my* experience, and, for me, 100% of the time, my tires were installed improperly.
Since they didn't target me, the only difference between me and everyone else, is that I kept a Bentley on my front seat.
Remember, they had to *ask me* what the torque was when I had asked and they said they torque all lug bolts to 100 foot pounds!
Also, when I told them that I'd check the air pressure, only then did the tech go back to the vehicle, check the door jamb, and then readjust the tire pressure.
Keep in mind, that I saw the old weights on the wheel after it was on the balance machine.
Again, the only difference between me and the next person is simply that I knew (a little bit) about how they *should* be installing tires properly.
That's not what's printed on the Tire Rack web site.
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And, that's why Tire Rack (Ken Tener, Recommended Installer Program Coordinator) booted them from the program.
The amount of BS being spouted in this group is amazing. It's too bad. I had expected more astute technical information.
I guess it's *my* fault for trusting Tire Rack's recommended-installer program (although they did immediately cancel their contract with Midas when I reported this to them and they verified it); and it's again, *my* fault for asking here.
I had expected more from this group. I had expected more from Tire Rack's recommended installer program. And, I had expected more from Midas.
OK. I apologize. I do agree, as with *many* technical issues, the answers are equivocal. That's why I had asked here in the first place. I thought someone else would have already thought of the answer.
It turns out, if you read *some* articles, the tire dots and wheel match-mounting marks are *only* for OE installations.
Yet, if you read others, they're for all installations.
While there were multiple (somewhat conflicting) recommendations in the articles, the *most common* recommendation was as simple as this:
Road force balancing is best.
If you don't road-force balance, then:
If you have a wheel match-mounting mark, and if you have a tire red dot, match the red dot to the match-mounting mark.
If you don't have a match-mounting mark, and you have a red dot, match the red dot to the valve stem.
If you don't have a red dot, then substitute the yellow dot.
Also, common sense now dictates:
a. Know your lug bolt (or nut) torque BEFORE you bring your vehicle to the tire shop, and check the torque with a torque stick afterward (because they torque all vehicles to the same force).
b. Bring along a tool for removal of the hub cap (e.g., for BBS wheels), because the tire shop may use a screwdriver instead.
c. Know your PSI (front and rear) and check the PSI with a tire gauge before you leave the shop (they don't bother to put the correct psi).
d. Remove wheel weights yourself before bringing the vehicle to the shop because you can't trust that they'll do it (they almost never do).
e. Don't bother asking anyone else for advice; they don't know any better than you do.
I now have the answer, based on the references, and speaking personally to Ken Tener and Allan at Tire Rack.
The dots to align are the red dot with the match-mounting mark, or, if there is no red dot, then the yellow dot to the match mounting notch, or, if there is no match-mounting dimple, then the valve stem to the red dot (or to the yellow dot if there is no red dot).
However, if someone here knows of *better* references, please post; otherwise, we're pretty much done as there isn't anything more to learn (especially if people have no better information than I had when I started looking for the answer).
Here are the technical references that I know of which discuss proper match mounting of wheels and tires:
Motor magazine article on match mounting for aluminum wheels:
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Bridgestone pamphlet on match mounting:
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Bridgestone magazine article on match mounting:
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Yokohama article explaining the "Uniformity" and "Weight" methods of match mounting:
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Yokohama TSB on match mounting:
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Rubber Manufacturers Association tire booklet (See Chapter 2, page 33 "Match Mounting"):
um, you're confusing "midas" with "professional". but that doesn't matter because you're one of those guys that doesn't get it otherwise you'd never have gone there in the first place.
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