Just mounted & static balanced my 30th tire in about five years - saving over $400

[Ralph Mowery]

A true democrat does not have a job that pays eonugh to be taxed if they have a job at all. They are on the social program for the lazy.

[Arlen G. Holder]

Hi Clare,

We don't disagree.

o You're basing your belief system on your experience & knowledge o I'm basing my belief system on my experience & current references

You have far more experience & knowledge than I do, Clare. o My experience is the same as yours, which is red=uniformity, yellow=weight

I'm all about facts, where facts are funny just as adults are funny, in that adults can easily agree on facts if they're presented logically.

Presenting facts logically, would you agree that both you and I have _never_ seen any other colors than red === unifority, and yellow === weight, right?

OK. So we both agree that we have never seen it done any other way, right?

All I'm saying is that _some_ references "claim" that those aren't the only colors and that those colors "may" mean whatever they mean to the specific manufacturer.

For example, I _already_ provided two cites for those claims, Clare: o So you have everything that I have already.

You don't have to _believe_ those cites o But you do have to belief that they exist (which is all I'm saying).

Unfortunately, the canonical Bridgestone PDF is nowhere to be found...

but we can assume this guy accurately copied it since people complained that he copied it, where Bridgestone is said to say, very clearly: "Does Every Tire Manufacturer Use The Same Marks? Unfortunately, no. Some manufacturers do not mark their tires at all, and *some use _different_ colors*.

While standards can be different for USA tires, this Contenental Technical Bulletin for the UK & Ireland says Continental sometimes uses "white" dots and sometimes "yellow" dots, and even "blue" dots for the weight dot. "Although there is a consistent red coloured dot identifying the tyres 'radial force variations first harmonic maximum', *there is _no standard colour_ for the 'light static balance point'* *Continental Tyres indicate [light static balance point] with a white dot* *but it may be yellow or blue*"

The real question of import is where to put the tire on an old steel stock wheel versus an old custom alloy wheel when mounting at home (and where the original match mounting marks are likely obliterated), where the cite you brought up says "it's confusing".

Hi Clare,

We don't disagree. o And I already previously gave you the cites in the post you responded to.

Clearly both Continental & Bridgestone said the colors can differ. o Just as clearly, both you and I have never seen them differ.

Both those are facts, Clare. o You simply have to sort them out for yourself, as did I.

It's fine for you to state you don't believe the references o Or if you state the references only apply to Europe & not to the USA

But you can't claim that my statements aren't based on those references.

We are both adults Clare, where I'm only stating what I've read in the cites, which I proved above, which I proved _before_ you claimed that I didn't prove that claim.

Whether or not the references are correct is a completely different issue, Clare, where I, like you, have _never_ seen the red dot not mean uniformity and the yellow dot not mean weight.

Rest assured, nobody has _ever_ seen me state material facts wrong on Usenet, Clare, and I've posted for many (many) years.(See note 1).

That's because I don't say things are facts if they're not based on facts.

Hence, for every material fact you hear me write on Usenet o You can rest assured I can find a cite backing up that fact.

Do you know anyone with as incredible a record on facts as I have Clare? o HINT: My belief systems are based on facts that I can cite.

The real question of import is where to put the tire on an old steel stock wheel versus an old custom alloy wheel when mounting at home (and where the original match mounting marks are likely obliterated), where the cite you brought up says "it's confusing".

In summary Clare, "some" references (particularly for European markets) clearly claim that the colors can be different; but I agree with you that both you and I have _never_ seen the dots in the USA mean anything but o red === uniformity o yellow === weight

[Arlen G. Holder]

Hi Trader, Your math is sound, where I agree with your logic. o Adults have no problem agreeing on facts & basic logical deductions.

In addition, I want to say that I very much appreciate that you mentioned that Costco now does non-Costco tires, which they didn't used to do (which I confirmed at Costco afer I read your original post).

Hence, Usenet worked as a medicum for us to bounce ideas back & forth o Where I appreciate that you brought value to the potluck picnic

I don't disagree that the $15 Costco mounting price makes wanting your own tools less incentive by price alone, as, another advantage of the $15 Costco mounting is the free balance & rotation.

It's a lot less fun to go to Costo than to do it yourself o But at those great prices, it's a lot harder on the home math. :)

Given the free rotation & balance, the $15 price isn't bad, I agree, and, in fact, if I had known that five or so years ago when I calculated the payback costs of the tire-changing tools, I might have given up on the tire-changing tools, just like I have given up on having my own paint booth and lift and alignment tools.

The main problem with Costco are the lines, but, the price is great. o Costco might not put in brass tire valves - but you do get green air! :)

In summary, having Costco do the work is a lot less fun o But it's a viable option for sure given they do non-Costco tires.

[Clare Snyder]

The thing everybody is forgetting is REAL TIRE SHOPS and REAL AUTO REPAIR SHOPS mount and balance tires for the same price - or very close - and you CAN GET AN APPOINTMENT. If your time isn't worth anything, and aggravation has no value, I guess standing in line at Costco is a good option.

When I buy new tires I drop my rims off at the tire shop where I bought the tires and pick them up a few hours later (ofter going to Costco for a $1.50 sausage and drink and a $2 Ice Cream?). Usually I buy my tires at seasonal change-over. When I put the snows on I say "those summer tires are not going back on" - and to be sure I buy the new summer tires and have them installed as soon as I get the snows on. The summers then go up into the attic of the shed and I'm all set for next year. Doesn't matter if the tire shop takes an hour or a week to source, mount and balance the new tires. By the time I put them back on next spring the sting of the cost of the new tires is forgotten, and I'm a happy camper!!

[danny burstein]

So if I route through Canada on my next trip, what should I look for?

[Sanity Clause]

"Themselves". Does that mean only those who've done it in their driveway at home, or does it also include the shop I've worked at for the last 12 years?

Either way, we normally use the yellow dot, not just because it's "correct" in our little version of reality, but because everyone expects it. Even if we miss by an inch or two, or the dot has worn off over time (used tire), or if we get a tire brand that doesn't even use dots, the balancer makes it all happy again. It's really not that critical.

[Arlen G. Holder]

Hi Sanity Clause, It means different things depending on the question that the person is answering.

If the question is a technical question about the proper final result in mounting tires, such as where the colored dots go with respect to the valve stem (or match mounting marks, which are generally obliterated in older wheels), then it's a question that the pros can answer.

But if it's a question about using a Harbor Freight shitty tool, it's likely NOT a question anyone can answer who hasn't used the Harbor Freight shitty tools.

I, for one, have used the Harbor Freight shitty tools, but most people who are making up excuses for NOT doing tires at home, have NEVER done tires anywhere, but even if they have, they've never done tires at home using the HF shitty tools.

Having a pro try to answer those types of questions is sort of like having a farmer in California try to answer why they urinate on their crops in India.

Two different use models, where the farmer in California has all the latest mechanization and irrigation and tractor-fed fertilization, while the farmer in India pisses and poops on his crops to get them to grow.

Worse, most of the people responding, except maybe you, me, and Clare, have _never_ in their entire lives mounted a tire at home using the shitty equipment that we're discussing here - where maybe even you and Clare have never done that.

Remembering that I'm allergic to bullshit, all those people making up those outlandish excuses for why they can't do it are just like my grandkids making up outlandish excuses for why they didn't do their homework.

The honest answer is that they don't like changing tires at home. o All the rest is pure bullshit, IMHO, if they've never done it.

I thank you for bringing up the fact that the yellow dot "can" be used, where _most_ of the references Clare and I have been discussing say to use it only if the red dot doesn't exist.

Sometimes facts are conflicting, where they seem to be conflicting here, which is ok, as long as we're all aware that they conflict.

The facts come first, and then we deduce rational logic from those facts: o Red is almost always the uniformity indicator o Yellow is almost always the weight indicator o Most cites (but not all say the red dot takes precedence over yellow o Most cites (but not all) say to mount the valve stem to the dots in the absence of match-mounting marks (which is almost always on older rims).

There's a confusing issue of weight of steel versus alloy, where it seems that the presumed heavy spot moves 180 degrees between steel and alloy because of the weight difference between the hole drilled for the valve, and the valve itself.

It's not _that_ simple, but it's close to that simple. o The whole point is to minimize added weight by good initial placement

In summary, I do appreciate that you have experience, because other than Clare, the posters who made up excuses have never changed a tire at home, so their excuses were based on nothing material.

I've changed 30 tires at home, where I can say a few things:

1. I mount the red dot to the valve stem on both steel & alloy (but maybe I should re-think that based on what you & Clare say).
2. I have never failed to mount a tire, from puny 15 inch tires to larger

17 inch tires, where the SUV tires are the hardest due to the sidewalls, I think, which are designed for heavier loads.

1. I static balance, which I admit is basic, but which seems to work in that I don't get perceptible vibration, but I like Trader's information that Costco now dynamically balances tires for only five bucks, which is a great deal.

So, moving forward, my plan is: A. Buy tires at great prices online & have them shipped for free, to me. B. Mount/Balance/Rotate/Repair them at home using HF shitty equipment. C. If I feel vibration, then pay Costco $5 per tire to dynamically balance.

One question I'd like to ask you is whether you feel that an _imperceptible_ vibration can cause damage?

[Arlen G. Holder]

Hi Clare, I don't think there are _any_ shops that I've seen in the Silicon Valley (other than Costco) which will do lifetime balance & rotation for $15 per tire.

Most charge around $20 for a _one-time_ balance & rotation per tire.

And, _all_ the shops make you wait forever, in my experience, appointment or no appointment.

That's one of the reasons doing it at home is so convenient. o Lifetime balance & rotation, for free in the convenience of your own home o No appointment o No wait o Free coffee, ice cream, and donuts (if the wife picked them up that is) etc.

:)

The $1.50 Costco hotdog and soda deal is fantastic (IMHO), as is the pizza, where I would agree with you that dropping off the rims and then picking them up later is the better deal for sure on time management.

As always, adults have little problem agreeing on rational logic.

[Arlen G. Holder]

We disagree philosophically, where I completely understand your assumption that if something is more expensive, it _must_ be better.

For me, if something is more expensive, it's just more expensive. o The expense is an indication of the demand and nothing else.

Demand may or may not track with quality.

Of course, if everyone were _intelligent_, the demand might better match quality, but the mere fact that advertising works means that the demand is influenced by bullshit marketing, which has _nothing_ to do with quality.

In short, my philosophy is based on fact since I'm allergic to bullshit. o You get what you get (which is whatever you can tell about what you get). o You pay what other people pay (since the overall demand sets the price).

[Biff Tannen]

My HOA won't let me bolt tire changing/balancing equipment to the sidewalk . They would prolly frown on a hydraulic lift mounted in my driveway too.  And the air compressor and impact wrenches might bother the neighbors as well.  I guess I'll just have my friendly neighborhood Ford dealer do my car maintenance.

But I am curious, how does your wife get free coffee, ice cream, and donuts?  WIC card?

[Biff Tannen]

Yah, there's no difference in quality between a Pooplan chainsaw at McLowes Depot and a Stihl Professional.

/sarcasm

[trader_4]

Yeah, save half an hour, then go home and have to spend that much time anyway jacking up the car and putting the wheels on. Plus, most people don't have another set of wheels to begin with and while the tires are being mounted, you can be shopping at Costco, having your pizza, eating their free food samples, etc.

[sms]

Avoid static balancing at all cost.

[Ed Pawlowski]

No BS from me. I think for most people it is silly to DIY when the payback is measured in decades. I have no interest in doing it.

I'm not sure if you have an air of superiority or are just arrogant. Its the way you come across though.

[trader_4]

I'd add that I have mounted tires, many decades ago, in an auto garage. We used a real tire mounting machine, bolted to the floor, that used compressed air and a piston to break the bead. And a tool worked around by hand to get the bead off the tire, and a device to help squeeze tires that would not inflate after they were mounted. With that setup, it wasn't bad. But I would not want to be doing it with primitive tools from HF, not when I can get one mounted and balanced for $15. Compare that to doing a brake job, where you typically don't need special eqpt or eqpt that gets bolted to the floor. Brake job at the stealership or a shop could be $500 to $1000 and you can do it for $60. Now there the value proposition makes it logical to DIY.

[Ralph Mowery]

Where I have bought tires, I get about all of that but the food. Free rotation, balance, and repairs to the tire. Also free flat fixing for anyone in the family if they give them my telephone number. I can get an appointment, or just drop in.

Many years ago I worked for Sears changing tires and changing oil and plugs. They had an air operated changer that broke the beads and even ran the thing that lifted the tire off and on the rim. Air jacks or lifts and impact wrenches to take the rims off the cars. I would not want to fight a tire with the HF tools no more than I change tires now.

[Rod Speed]

That’s overstate, its better than nothing.

[Arlen G. Holder]

This is a philosophical discussion where my main point is that it's only stupid people who tend to say "you get what you pay for".

They _want_ things to be as simple as a price. o But it's not.

They _wish_ things to be as simple as a price. o But it's not.

They actually _believe_ things to be as simple as a price. o But it's not.

The real world is more complicated than they can possibly even imagine. o It's only their brain which is simple

Simple like the brain of a child. o Who still believes in Santa Claus.

The fact is that you can pay $300 for a Poulan at Sears (if you can find a Sears) or $300 for a Husky at Lowes, where the price has nothing whatsoever to do with how well that Craftsman works (which, we all know to have crappy engines) versus the Lowe's Husky or the local landscape supply Stihl.

The price has nothing to do with how well the chainsaw works. o Anyone who says otherwise is illogical, and generally ignorant, IMHO.

Certainly they _believe_ price tracks efficacy.. o But I can name plenty of examples where that's just not true.

For example, generic trucks versus name brand. o Or, for example, Costco gas versus Chevron gas

The reason is simple, which is that the price is set by a variety of factors, many of which are completely unrelated to efficacy.

For an obvious example, you can pay a lot for a specific red iPhone o But it's no better (or worse) than any other similar iPhone

There are so many obvious examples that anyone who says "you get what you pay for", is usually not a logical person.

They can't back up their own statements since it takes mere seconds to prove them dead wrong.

If their entire belief system is DESTROYED in two seconds of facts... o then their belief system is imaginary

It's like they believe in Santa Claus o But two seconds of facts can destroy that imaginary belief system.

You can pay $20 for a shitty Fram oil filter o Or you can pay $5 for a great Mann oil filter

The price is the price o And the quality is the quality

Anyone who says "you get what you pay for" can't comprehend that o The complexity of the actual facts is beyond their comprehension

It's actually terrifying how dumb most people really are. o Anyone who says "you get what you pay for", is terrifyingly dumb (IMHO)

[Arlen G. Holder]

That was supposed to be "generic drugs" versus name brand.

Anyone who thinks that the price indicates the efficacy o Probably still believes in Santa Claus

My only point in this is that it's only stupid people who say that "you get what you pay for".

They _want_ things to be as simple as their brain works. o They can't handle the complexity that the world isn't that simple.

[Arlen G. Holder]

Is it a fact that _nobody_ who has posted, except me, has actually _done_ the job "at" home, using home equipment?