Home defense. Buckshot vs. birdshot

TimR wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@googlegroups.com:

And on that basis, you think you're able to talk about what firearm loads can and can't do?

You don't know much about guns.

Do you seriously imagine that "heavy clothes" are as much as an impediment to #8 shot as a *wall*?

You don't know much about guns.

Exit holes just mean wasted energy.

Unquestionably Confused wrote in news:58f82670$0$31213 $c3e8da3$ snipped-for-privacy@news.astraweb.com:

My first choice, if it were legal, would be a sawed-off 12ga.

It is only money ($200) and a background check. The main advantage is it is just smaller tho. A 20" cylinder bore throws just about the same pattern as a 12ga shot out of 10" of 3/4" pipe. (actual experience)

I like 2 holes myself. Mainly for blood trail. Usually you shoot from an elevated position and sometimes high hits do not bleed right away and if there is a lot of cover and no snow deer can be tough to track. Lost big doe I shot last year with crossbow as bolt did not penetrate. Guy found it a couple of days later about 400 yards from where I shot it. Said it was a perfect shot.

Nah. That's just a myth.

Look, suppose it takes 10 footpounds of energy to shear the edges of a bullet size hole exactly through a deer broadside.

If I shoot it with a 10 footpound energy bullet, it will dump 10 pounds of energy in the deer and stop in the skin on the far side.

If I shoot it with a 100 footpound energy bullet, it will dump 10 pounds of energy in the deer and 90 in the hillside behind it. Same amount of damage.

Now, I could have used some of that extra 90 to expand the bullet a little more, and make a little bigger hole. So in that sense there was an opportunity lost. But there was nothing wasted.

If the deer is quartering away, and it takes 14.4 footpounds of energy to shear that hole, and I shoot it with 10, I might be screwed. I always want to penetrate deeply enough to hit vitals, and the sure way is to go all the way through.

Any time I don't make two holes, I took a risk I didn't get deep enough to cause a clean kill. We've all seen a varmint bullet blow up on ribs and leave a deer to get away and suffer.

At very short ranges shot doesn't spread much. You will have to aim.

But it does spread a little. I can envision a scenario where you might be targeting a bad guy and can't afford any shot spreading near your kids. Pretty rare I'm sure, but so is the whole home defense chance.

If I were going to spend the $200, and seriously thought I might EVER shoot inside my house, I think I might go for the suppressor instead.

Wait a few months and you may be able to get that suppressor without a form 4. The hearing protection act is grinding it's way through a friendly congress.

I hope they do. From some other groups it seems that in some other countries that have more restrictive gun laws they require suppressors on the guns for noise control.

Yup, I agree, training is the key both mental and physical.

You are known as a "hard baller"

Yes, you have to be comfortable with the weapon to actually use it. You also have to have a plan so you don't shoot innocence's. You also have to have a mind set that will allow you to take another's life. There WILL be repercussions.

There is also the damage done by the cavity that the bullet creats. A high velocity bullet will creat an expansion in the soft tissue that causes a lot of shock and damage.

The myth of a percision shot or shot placement under stress is something else also. A very good shooter on paper could very easy miss the vital area at close range under stress. The larger or more powerful bullet helps in that case.

Someone mentioned more have been killed by a .22 long rifle. That may be true, but two things come into play. Most were shot in the back of the head or it took them several minutes to bleed out. Many hogs have been killed with a 22, but let a wild bore come charging at you and see if you can hit it in the kill area. Especillay before he runs all over you.

When someone is doped up about the only way to stop them is to break a main bone or other main part that stops them in a very short period of time. Many deer do not weigh much more than some people. They often run for a while when shot if a bone is not broken, or maybe a head shot.

While a shotgun is good, it is long enough that when going in a room someone could grab the barrle and take it away. I like the short M4 type of AR 15. Load it with some varmit type bullets. They will penetrate a lot of things, but once they hit an air cavity, usually come apart. Try this at close range with them. They will shoot through a

I usually have a 40 caliber handgun and bright flashlight in my bookcase bed. No children in the house to worry about. I do make sure it is put up when the grandson comes to the house.

I understand most people are never going to actually do a real practical training but at a minimum they should understand "retention" and front sight shooting. If you don't do anything else at a range, you should practice going from high retention to firing until it is seamless, one shot at a time. Try to go in one fluid motion with a minimal pause for aiming and keep all shots in a small paper plate at

But we know that the liberal loons in the Regress and anti-gun crowd will be arguing that "if we allow silencers, we won't know somebody has been shot. . .[and then we won't be able to blow up some more statistics to outlaw guns]"

Similar to the idiot in the legislature that proposed simply banning magazines based on her intelligent statement that "once they shoot that magazine, it will be empty!"

I like to tell the story about 3 separate family members I took to the range to try out their new semi-automatics. All three could not put a single round in paper emptying the magazine while I took their guns, all models I had not shot before, and put every round on paper.

I'm sure there are millions of guns out their bought for self protection with little or no practice. If they ever need to use them, the miscreant is safe from being hit.

The only saving grace is the bad guy is unlikely to know how to shoot either. If can just train to hit a paper plate at 7 yards without thinking about it too much you are ahead of most cops and most robbers. Just don't let them take your gun away from you, hence "retention". Keep it close to your chest with your elbows tucked in. Learn to shoot from there, extend and fire or just fire from the tuck. Get it out far enough so the brass doesn't go up your nose ;-)

Even some of the cops can not shoot worth shucks.

I was at a cop friend of mine that had a place to shoot at his house. A special deputy came by with a new semiautomatic 30/06. We put up the man size police target at 25 yards. The man could not keep all the shots in that target. The cop and I both shot it and I had never shot a large caliber semiautomatic. My group was about hand size as I was shooting as fast as I could get near the target. The cop took his time and the bullet holes were less than an inch apart. Nothing wrong with the gun except the man behind it.

The deputy was going to go deer hunting with that gun. Never did hear if he ever killed a deer or not.

For many cops their issue weapon is just another three pounds to hang off the duty belt. Blow the spiders out of the bore every now and then when they have to qualify. If all goes well, make it to retirement without ever using it in a serious situation.

As a friend likes to remind me.. "Gun control is hitting what you aim at!" :)