Home defense. Buckshot vs. birdshot

The author's choice is birdshot because it wouldn't penetrate a second wall in a home.

Reply to
Dean Hoffman
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I've thought of this. A load of bird shot at close range would be like hitting with a chunk of lead and just as devastating as buck shot. Not so sure at 20 feet. The buck shot may go through a wall but what are chances that someone would be injured? I'm not going to let some burglar close to me before I have to shoot.

Reply to
Frank

It won't.

Also it won't reliably go through heavy clothes.

Forget this test, read the stuff on Box o Truth.

Reply to
TimR

It might not penetrate heavy clothing at close range but would be like getting hit with a sledge hammer. It will deter if not kill.

My comment comes from watching a lot of police shooters who practice at short range and would consider shooting if the perp gets closer than 20 ft.

Reply to
Frank

Bullshit. At close range (10-15 feet) a load of #8s will blow a hole through both sides of a car door. Out around 25 yards a heavy winter jacket may stop it but you will still have your bare skin peppered with shot that will be below the surface. The bigger the shot, the longer range that it is lethal. 00 buck is deadly at ranges approaching a mile since it is basically the same size as a .22 RF bullet with a similar muzzle velocity.

Reply to
gfretwell

Hey, I don't make this stuff up, it's based on research by people smarter t han me.

Round projectiles don't penetrate well, and the smaller they are the worse this is.

If Box o Truth is still up, he's got a lot of fascinating experiments on pe netration with really good photos.

You might want to read the USDA publication on Safety in Bear Country: Prot ective Measures and Bullet Performance. They did not recommend buckshot, e ver. Beyond 15 feet they only got two inches penetration in their test med ia (compared to 15 inches with a slug). Of course home defense distances w ill be short, but still you need penetration. Buck might do it, birdshot j ust isn't reliable enough.

Reply to
TimR

Just being a guy who used to hunt as a kid and shot up junk cars in the woods I know a low brass #8 load will go through a car door at 10 feet. The hole is about the size of a red bull can. A slug will go through both sides of the car if it doesn't hit the seat. I agree that once the pattern starts to open up, it becomes less of a penetrator because that ounce of lead is spread out but that is not really much of an issue inside a house unless you have a very big house. The bulk of your pattern is going to be about the size of the palm of your hand in most rooms. (15-20') A gun with a choke will be tighter than that.

Reply to
gfretwell

My brother once shot at a rabbit not considering where I was and I was peppered with shot that harmlessly bounced off my hunting jacket but one hit me in the nose causing a slight bleed. It was months later that I noticed the spot seemed to be bulging so I went to the doctor who removed the pellet. Not sure of range my brother shot at but doubt it was over 50 yards.

I've done some work on Kevlar body armor and know the important thing is to spread the energy throughout the garment. You can put an ice pick through a Kevlar vest that is not penetrated by a .44 mag. I once saw a demo on TV where an arrow with a broad-head penetrated a bag of sand that was not penetrated by a 30.06 rifle round.

Buckshot is going to penetrate better at longer range but I quit hunting with it years ago because of unreliability at range less than 50 yards.

Reply to
Frank

TimR wrote in news:54a774be-abac-45c9-aef9- snipped-for-privacy@googlegroups.com:

Depends on the range. At the ranges typically encountered in home defense (15-20 feet, tops) #6 or #8 birdshot is absolutely deadly.

Years ago, I shot a possum inside my barn with a 12ga shotgun loaded with #8 low brass -- possum was six feet up a metal T-post leaning against a concrete block wall. Range was about 15 feet. A baseball-sized chunk of possum simply vanished; the concrete behind it was spalled to a depth of about 5-6mm; and the "shadow" of the steel post was clearly visible on the concrete.

And you're telling me "it won't reliably go through heavy clothes"??

I'm telling you, you don't know much about guns.

Reply to
Doug Miller

I've done the majority of my hunting on small game with relatively low powe red airguns. I have a bias toward penetration and placement - I don't much care about energy or expansion, just putting the projectile deep enough to hit what I need.

It seems to me that you can't have your cake and eat it too - you can't ins ist on a load for purposes of low penetration in walls, and not accept that at least some of the time that will mean low penetration through thick clo thes and maybe a thick person.

On the rare occasions I did shoot a deer I insisted on two holes, one on ea ch side. Just the way I think. I can see your side of it too. For what i t's worth, I live in a masonry house, and so do all my neighbors. A slug i s likely not a problem here.

Reply to
TimR

I have never bought into the idea that a shotgun was the perfect home weapon in the first place. It is harder to actually move around with a long gun and there is plenty of opportunity for over penetration with a shotgun, particularly with buckshot. If you are not properly trained you have a better chance of someone simply taking it away from you. If you are willing to train, get a .45 or a 9mm and get good with it.

Reply to
gfretwell

All kinds of thoughts on home defense weapons. Shotgun, pistol, revolver or. . .

How about the handheld "shotgun" Taurus Judge or S&W Governor. Both 5 shot revolvers chambered in .410 ga and .45 Colt. A lot of nice personal defense loads now manufactured specifically for these guns with short barrels. Very maneuverable and devastating at close range.

If I were limited to just one gun for home protection, it would be one of these.

You have to remember that for the most part the homeowner is not dealing with a Ninja attack or fending off highly trained SpecOps warriors.

When you let loose with a single round from a gun, first he'll say it and then he'll do it and it won't make a damn bit of difference if he put on clean underwear before heading out since it will undoubtedly be dirty now!

Reply to
Unquestionably Confused

It is just a big bore revolver.

Reply to
gfretwell

That shoots shot shells with multiple projectiles. Think force multiplier and relatively wide pattern at close range and more maneuverability over a shotgun.

Reply to
Unquestionably Confused

n't insist on a load for purposes of low penetration in walls, and not acce pt that at least some of the time that will mean low penetration through th ick clothes and maybe a thick person.

e on each side. Just the way I think. I can see your side of it too. For what it's worth, I live in a masonry house, and so do all my neighbors. A slug is likely not a problem here.

You're still talking a very weak version of a .410. I think I'd rather hav e a reliable .22 and put several rounds where I need them. (not that I rea lly worry about it - I live in a quiet low crime neighborhood, and have a d og and an alarm system.)

When you go look for that intruder, in the family room of house you're fami liar with having lived there for years, you have to find him. You hear the noise, but you don't know where he is until you see him, decide he's not o ne of your kids coming in late, and put a round on target. But he knows EX ACTLY where you are - the doorway. Gotta plan for that, train for that. R esearch shows that he has. Criminals don't have to decide whether to fight or flee. They made that decision long before the crime, and practiced the ir response. Only honest people get slowed down by having to make a decisi on.

Reply to
TimR

When I took a practical pistol course years ago the first thing they showed was a video from the NRA on home defense. Woman in bedroom with pistol, phone, lights on and door locked. She called police and if intruder came through door she would have to shoot him. Point is that worst thing is to search dark house for intruder who might have the advantage.

Reply to
Frank

edit

Never try to clear a house yourself. The bit about the woman in the bedroom is the best way to handle that situation. Always bring your phone to bed with you. Call the pros in blue and wait safely in the room behind the closed/locked door. If the perp comes to the door, send some of your ammo through the door.

I personally think triple aught is best with a shotgun, or a revolver such as The Judge. I do own a Judge.

My choice when going to bed is to have two 45 semis on the table by the bed. One is a Colt Commander. The other is a Colt Defender. If one jams, the other is available. I also have an extra mag for each.

A phone in the bedroom is a must. It can be more effective than your gun. It can get you help. We also have a set of outdoor sirens which we can operate from a switch in our bedroom. Bad guys don't like noise.

*Never* try to clear any house or garage, etc., by yourself. Any expert in self defense who tells you that is *not* an expert. Chances are great his advice will get you killed.
Reply to
mrk

I agree. I brought it up because some people think you might have an edge, on familiar ground, but if you're moving it's the other way around.

I'm not sure it's always so black and white, though.

Come home to your house, you see the door kicked in, you hear somebody movi ng around inside, okay, that would be a house clearing scenario. Back way off, call police from far far away, let the professionals handle it.

Wake suddenly in the middle of the night sure you heard a noise in the kitc hen. Was it a dream? an intruder? do you do the safe thing, lock the doo r and call 911? Or was it a cereal box falling off the top of the refriger ator? Is this house clearing or not?

Pretty sure my dog will go nuts with somebody in the yard, let alone the ho use. But if you don't have a dog or an alarm, you might get into a "house clearing" scenario accidentaly.

Reply to
TimR

That is certainly the best strategy if you are in the home alone but if you are worried about an intruder making off with your kids you will be going to check on them.

Reply to
gfretwell

I know exactly what you mean.

Years back I bought some cheap, refurbished cameras with small 3 1/2" monitors. I can turn on the monitors up in the 2nd floor bedroom and see inside the entire length of the first floor of our home. I also have a camera in the garage. I have a very expensive Gold Wing in there. I got tired of getting up and going outside to it to see if it was merely a mouse crawling around if front of the motion sensor or an actual intruder which set off the alarm. Even with my 45, I didn't like the experience. The combo of the motion sensors and camera makes life a lot safer.

We have two dogs. However, I've read in our local paper that pepper spraying the poor animals is not uncommon. Even if they dogs do bark at night, you still have to get up and see what they are barking at.

What you bring up is a very serious problem. A cheap wireless camera/monitor combo can show you immediately what the real story is of what is happening in your home. My cameras do not record. The are el chepos which only show you in real time what is happening.

Another deterrent that can make bad guys think twice is to have signs placed on the property which say very simply that you are protected by the 2nd amendment. On the sign is a pic of a either a revolver or semi.

I and my wife are in our eighties. People our ages are supposedly prime targets for home invasions, etc., That's why we take this all very seriously.

Yes I do still ride my Gold Wing despite my age. Sixty-five years of riding isn't easy to give up. :o)

Reply to
mrk

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