Amen! And then consider the cost of all the GFCIs attached to hairdryers and curling irons in the past 20 years - millions of diollars, when 99% of the outlets they are plugged into are already protected by GFCIs.
I'm thinking most fires start and there is nobody around. if one installs a sprinkler, that activating, should also call response company.
The politicians said they are considering the high estimate cost to possibly modify the requirements.
Fire company takes 5 minutes to get there ? How long does it then take to hook up after they get there. ??
I think better fire codes on insulation and drywall requirements might be better.
I need to install a wood stove and get approval. I wonder if the borough can do that ?? I don't want to get it professionally installed. I have an existing chimney.
All the new homes I see built are for the rich. Screw them. Contractors don't want to build cheap houses. They make more money on the big ones. All the poorer people have to settle for used stuff. The people that don't like national health insurance, don't have many friends that need it.
greg
and your point is?
Doug
Right, 20 people safe TODAY...
Want to tell me how many fatalities there were from those electrocution accidents 30 or 40 years ago before they became required ?
How far back did your statistical analysis go there Smitty ?
~~ Evan
On Jan 10, 1:10=A0pm, " snipped-for-privacy@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz" wrote:
That is a perfectly legitimate exercise of the police power of the state. Not every state action that places a burden on an individual is rampant nannyism. If the state action is designed to protect it's citizens from each other rather than themselves it is a normal function of state government and indeed the entire reason that state government exists. "Your right to swing your arms ends were the other fellas nose begins." Justice Holmes
Requiring sprinklers is no different than requiring a non combustible roof. It is a measure to protect your neighbors from your carelessness so that when you have a fire; that 's right I said when. on average every American family has one accidental fire during the head of households lifetime; the cost of that fire will be born by you rather than your neighbors or your community. That is not nannyism but rather the legitimate exercise of the police power of the state. Fire protection is an exercise of the state's police powers that is carried out by the local governments of each state. The reason that firefighters make an aggressive interior attack on a fire in your home is so that it will not get large enough to become a threat to your neighbors homes who, at least at that moment, are not having an uncontrolled fire that could burn down their homes. When they attack the fire they cut large wholes in your roof and break out all of your windows even though that increases your losses. This is done to vent the superheated gasses that would cause injury or death to the firefighters and delay or prevent the attack on the fire. All of that is quite deliberate. The value of your home is sacrificed to keep the fire from spreading beyond the building of origin. The requirement for sprinklers is a decision by the state government to take advantage of the available technology to shift the cost of fire protection from the public to the owner of the building were the threat will originate.
-- Tom Horne
Perhaps you do not know how to read the Constitution nor how to interpret what is written there and how the Supreme Court of the United States has interpreted and clarified the document in the ensuing 223 years since it was written by the founding fathers and architects of our country...
The fact that you can *buy* anything is at the discretion of the US Congress which has the sole authority on the regulation of Commerce in the United States...
Article I, =A7 8:
-- "To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;"
(Commonly referred to as the "Commerce Clause")
-- "To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;"
-- "To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof."
(Commonly referred to as the "Necessary and Proper Clause")
So it is written there, just not in the terms which you seem to need it to be so that you can clearly understand it I guess...
Unless you are building a log cabin using only locally available materials (meaning you chopped down the logs yourself) you are engaging in and benefiting from interstate commerce to procure your supplies and materials which had to move across state lines to arrive at the local store from which you purchased them... THAT gives Congress the power to decide on how those materials should be sold and used... Or to require any safety laws it feels are necessary...
It is my opinion that in the next few coming generations of the National Building Code that automatic fire sprinklers will soon be a nationwide requirement...
~~ Evan
I have been responsible for sprinkler systems in various structures my entire life and I didn't spend half a day each month emptying drum traps. That is only necessary in the weeks immediately after a system trip or the weeks just after commissioning a metallic pipe system. Once a system is properly charged there is no way for water to enter the piping system beyond the dry pipe valve unless the system trips or is charged from the fire department connection.
-- Tom Horne
Its not only Pa with sprinklers any state following ICC codes need sprinklers unless they have excluded itand some states did.
Also all new circuits installed in a any residence new or existing must now be protected by a Arc Fault breaker. at $35.00 a pop plus all electrical outlets must now be child tamper proof as of 2010 NEC Plus there are new insulation energy code costs and tests as well on average all the new code things will add 8-10 thousand to the cost of a new home.
You obviously know nothing about firefighting or automatic sprinklers. You offer no basis for your statements, which over forty years of fire service experience tells me are completely untrue, but you expect your readers to except them as gospel. Just how many times have you crawled down a long snotty hallway looking for other peoples children at 0dark30 in the morning? How much water does a modern interior attack line flow per minute? How many seconds of flow does it take to knock a room and contents that has flashed over? Do you have the faintest idea?
I have been on fire attacks were the fire flow exceeded twenty thousand gallons a minute and were the loss was limited to less than forty percent of the buildings value in spite of the fact that the de- watering operation took hours. I have been on many house fires were the fire flow exceeded five hundred gallons a minute and the loss was limited to less than a quarter of the buildings value. The amount of loss to the building of origin is immaterial though as long as the fire is held to that structure and does not spread to other properties the state has done it's job.
-- Tom Horne
Name one insurance carrier that will do that nick. Just one will do.
-- Tom Horne
Oh I see for the sake of the builders we should allow them to continue to condemn communities to the cost of manual fire protection for the life of each new structure. Umm I vote no!
-- Tom Horne
Smitty Requiring sprinklers is just a way to shift the cost of keeping your fire to yourself from your fellow citizens to you. The state is not trying to protect you from yourself. They are trying to protect you from your neighbors and your neighbors from you. Manual fire protection is far more expensive than automatic fire protection. That is a fact.
-- Tom Horne
Any state following ICC codes now need to follow sprinkler code unless they exempt it not just Pa. Also There are new energy and Electrical codes to drive up the cost.
All new circuits installed in new or existing homes must now be protected by GFCI or new Arc Fault breakers Add $1000.00 extra cost for this average new homes. all outlets in home must be tamper proof to prevent children inserting items in outlets . a new infrared energy test must be run to see if home is leaking air. also new energy codes require almost all new homes have duct work in interior walls only no more outside walls unless special duct work used. average cost to a new home between sprinklers and electrical and energy is $8-10 thousand and thats if additional items like a pressure tank for sprinkler is needed.
I've been in one industrial fire where the sprinklers went off.
I was supervising a maintenance crew doing a repair. A welding torch threw a spark and started some dust going. The fire watch hit it immediately with the small hose but that seemed to make it worse. I was standing about 20 feet back, and the main fire hose was 20 feet behind me.
I turned and ran for the fire hose, and the fire went past me on the way. Holy Crap! I dropped the fire hose and booked for the exit. About then the sprinklers activated. It got dark and foggy and I whacked my shin really good on a piece of equipment.
Anyway, the sprinklers saved the plant and 144 jobs, in a rural Southern town where there were no other jobs and never would be. We had some water damage and we chased shorts in the machinery for about a year, but we were running, filling orders, and paying wages.
That made me a believer. I'm not 100% sure I would have made it out at all if the sprinklers hadn't held the fire back.
Wrong. It's yet another pipe to burst in the absolute *worst* place. Only a fool runs pipes in outside walls, or ceilings.
and again, the point is not that sprinklers are "good" or "bad", they may be helpful in some situations and harmful in others...
the point is ,,, is it correct for the gov't to MANDATE them...
Do we want a "nanny state"?
Mark
Sure, why not ban ovens or heaters
Neither should be
Seems to me it would be better just to ban outlets in the bathroom, even GFI's might still be dangerous wouldn't it?
That never stops bureaucracy
Perhaps you don't quite....wait.......BASS LIVES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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