tenon, back, dovetail, mitre hand saw

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If you look at what's for sale new or used some of the prices are ridiculous
i guess enough people think that a wood handle and saw blade should fetch lots of money
And "vintage" saws on ebay and bonanza must be inflated due to some collector frenzy
I thought i'd find a used saw for cheap but now I am gonna get a new 1 or 2
And vintage seems to be anything that just looks old. Dirt and rust and abuse seems to make it vintage
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On 4/7/2015 10:42 AM, Electric Comet wrote:

All in the eyes of the beholder. There are tools that you can buy and use to purposely damage your fresh built piece of furniture. I think the technique is called distressing. Some people will pay more for experienced tools. ;~)
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On Tue, 07 Apr 2015 11:05:59 -0500

counterfeiting is another word that would describe it
Some saw sellers seem to be capable of time travel as they have an endless supply of "vintage" saws
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On 4/7/2015 12:57 PM, Electric Comet wrote:

I understand. In this day and age where you can now build heirloom furniture.... Like building an antique. The fact that time is no longer a factor in the equation to determine if something has proven itself or not.
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On Tuesday, April 7, 2015 at 1:59:02 PM UTC-4, Electric Comet wrote:

I disagree.
The common definition of counterfeiting is:
"Counterfeiting is the practice of manufacturing goods, often of inferior q uality, and selling them under a brand name without the brand owner's autho rization."
"Distressing" is nothing more than a type of finishing:
"Distressing (or weathered look) in the decorative arts is the activity of making a piece of furniture or object appear aged and older, giving it a "w eathered look..."
If I build a new chair, distress it and then try to pass it off as a c-1920 Stickley, then I am guilty of counterfeiting. However, if I simply make th at new chair look old - and don't try to sell it as an brand named antique - I'm guilty of nothing.
What is somewhat misleading in that definition of distressing is the fact t hat distressing is often used to make an old object look it's correct age a fter being refinished. Yes, while you are making the newly refinished objec t *appear* "older", which is true to the wording in the definition, in real ity you are not trying to make a "new" object appear "old", since it actual ly is. I've done both: made new objects look old and made old objects look new and then made them look old again.

Maybe that's because there are a lot more old tools than new simply because for so many, many years hand tools were the only tools available. Think ab out how long dovetails have been being made and for how short a time (relat ively speaking) that they have been able to be made without the use of a ha nd saw. Hundreds of years of hand saws being the only option makes for an a wful large inventory.
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On Tue, 7 Apr 2015 11:53:29 -0700 (PDT)

ok when you come back from the weeds
if someone's distressing a tool to make it look vintage that's counterfeiting
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On Tuesday, April 7, 2015 at 3:45:03 PM UTC-4, Electric Comet wrote:

Nope.
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On Tue, 7 Apr 2015 12:56:26 -0700 (PDT)

unscrupulous is the word a collector used for folks like you i agree with them they warned me about this
if you purposefully make a tool look older than it is in order to get more money for it that's wrong and deceptive
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On Saturday, April 11, 2015 at 7:09:08 PM UTC-4, Electric Comet wrote:

Folks like me? Folks that offer definitions? What's unscrupulous about that ?

Not true. Purposefully making something look older than it is to get more m oney is not deceptive unless you also claim/imply that it is older than it is.
Remember what you said that I said "Nope" to:
"if someone's distressing a tool to make it look vintage that's counterfeit ing"
Distressing an object is nothing more than a finishing technique. Granted, if someone distresses an new object and then *advertises* it as vintage/ant ique/circa-1888, then yes, that is unscrupulous. However, the mere distress ing of an object to make it look old is neither counterfeiting nor unscrupu lous. It's nothing more than a finishing technique. That was my point, and the reason for my "Nope".
If I build a new house and finish it a style that makes it look like it was built in the 1800's - including using crackle paint to make it look really old - and then offer it for sale, that is not unscrupulous. However, I try to convince someone that the house was actually built in the 1800's, then I am being unscrupulous. The same goes for tools, furniture, paintings, etc .
You need to separate the finishing technique from the words used when adver tising the object for sale before you can say that the seller is being unsc rupulous. You need to consider the intent of the seller. Many people will pay more money for something with a distressed finish simply because they l ike the way it looks. Go to any crafts show and look at the hundreds of old looking objects that are both not old and not being advertised as old. Not hing unscrupulous going on there.
Here's a perfect example. I've made a number of these for my kids and for t heir friends. I distressed the hash tag to make it look older than it is. T here is absolutely nothing unscrupulous about making that brand new hash ta g look older than it is because I never claimed it was a "vintage hash tag" . It was distressed to make it look older than it is in an attempt to blend an old communication style (the chalkboard) with the new (twitter).
https://buzzfarmers.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Screen-Shot-2012-12-08-a t-1.29.58-PM.png
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On Sat, 11 Apr 2015 18:16:43 -0700 (PDT)

I meant the case where tools are claimed to be vintage or older based upon deceptive practices. The word "vintage" is already misused on ebay, bonanza, ecrater, etc.

not for tools, for furniture it's legit
but deception is the key and if that's the intent it's wrong
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On Monday, April 13, 2015 at 10:06:03 PM UTC-4, Electric Comet wrote:

...which is the point I've been trying to make all along. Since you now seem to agree with me, I assume you no longer consider me to be unscrupulous.
By the way, distressing can even be "legit" for tools, as long there is no intent to deceive. These tools probably *are* vintage, but if one were to make new tools look old and then display them as art, there would be nothing unscrupulous about it.
http://empressofdirt.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Garden-folk-art-tools.jpg
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On Mon, 13 Apr 2015 20:21:04 -0700 (PDT)

I consider anyone trying to deceive buyers to be unscrupulous some on ebay do so but may not even realize they are but that still doesn't excuse them from saying they're unsure about the product
there are sellers that will take dark photos on purpose there are sellers that will not show a defect these are bad sellers
there are sellers that do their best to reveal all and provide photos so the buyer can decide they answer questions
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On Tuesday, April 14, 2015 at 5:59:33 PM UTC-4, Electric Comet wrote:

Thank you for answering a question that was not asked.
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On Tue, 14 Apr 2015 17:50:23 -0700 (PDT)

it's an answer you have to find if you can't you can't i gave some criteria apply them and see where you are there
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On Wednesday, April 15, 2015 at 12:19:21 PM UTC-4, Electric Comet wrote:

Thank you for another clearly written response.
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Electric Comet wrote:

common rules of grammar. We are not texting. Why deliberately make messages difficult to understand for people from whom you might enjoy assistance in the future? Even if you are not an expert in grammar, nor am I, at least you could capitalize the first word of each sentence and use a period (.) at the end of each sentence. I hope that helps you in life.
Bill

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On Tue, 7 Apr 2015 11:49:43 -0400

point me to some good dovetail saws on HF looked and didn'tt see any
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On Tue, 7 Apr 2015 14:16:44 -0400

ok you're the one always pom-pom for HF!! I knew there was someone here it's fine I get they flyers all the time but still haven't been compleled enough
those saws no I don't think so
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I agree that many of the prices are ridiculous.
If it were me, I'd be looking at dozuki saws. They are super for dovetails even though that isn't their specific purpose. (There is another, smaller one - forget the name - specifically for that purpose).
They may not serve for tenons due to the depth of cut being limited by the spine. One could cut go as deep as possible and finish with a kataba or flush cut, no spine on either.
If you are interested in them, be aware that some are for rip, others for crosscut; number of TPI varies too. AFAIK, they are mostly for softwoods but I use them on hardwood too. The teeth are very hard and therefore brittle, can be broken off if one isn't careful.
Prices vary widely. I used to buy them for $15-$20, see them on eBay now for $35-$50 which is about the same adjusting for inflation. One could also pay a ton more but I wouldn't, YMMV.
--

dadiOH
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On Tue, 07 Apr 2015 13:02:16 -0400, dadiOH wrote:

I second that suggestion. Thinner kerf = less effort = faster cutting. And once you get used to the pull instead of push you'll love it.
BTW, get one with replaceable blades - sharpening a Japanese saw is a job for an expert. But they last a long time.
Here's the one I've used for years:
(Amazon.com product link shortened)
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