Re: RFD: rec.woodworking.moderated moderated

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snipped-for-privacy@usask.ca wrote in

I only see one proponent for this proposal. Was there an error? Perhaps the second moderator should be added to the lists of proponents too? It looks unusual that there is only one proponent..but two moderators.
--
Bill

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There's nothing unusual about proponent and moderator lists differing. Proponents are people who are involved in crafting an RFD and a CFV, and who at least in theory actively collaborate in pushing the proposal on news.groups, *and* in assessing comments on the proposal (whether on news.groups, in e-mail, or elsewhere) and considering possible changes.
Moderators are people who, well, moderate newsgroups. They decide whether to post posts, and they have various other jobs depending on circumstances. But they rarely act as text editors or salesmen, which are the two basic jobs proponents have. (Especially if you think of "salesmen" in a relatively sophisticated way. I've worked at industrial companies where a salesman might be involved in going back to the plant people and saying "OK, can we do this? If so, what can I tell them about specifications and ...")
Now, in *this* case, it's pretty obvious that the only salesman involved is the official proponent, so he's the only one who should be listed. Text editing is more complicated, because moderators do after all have to live with what the proponents write; but the other moderator candidate could be text editing behind the scenes. It is also possible that she doesn't exist, although that's not my read of the proponent's character based on his posts so far. Whatever. The unusual thing here is a moderated group proposal with so little artillery behind it, not the details of which names appear where on the RFD.
The *amusing* thing here is that the hostile reactions of the rec.woodworking people have me just about ready to bet real money that within two years, we'll see a moderated group proposal here from them with wide consensus behind it, a la the recent screenplays discussion.
Moderated group proposals from out of the blue are somewhat unusual, but it's not at all unusual that when they happen, they start someone scratching his or her head and saying "Hmmm, why not?" And if the traffic figures and other problems quoted are at all real, then I'd sorta expect that to happen in this case too.
Assuming, of course, that the proponent doesn't snatch victory from the jaws of defeat and actually a) pass a vote and b) get a working group set up. I'm not ready to bet real money on either of *those* propositions, though.
Joe Bernstein
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Joe Bernstein, bookseller and writer snipped-for-privacy@sfbooks.com
<http://www.panix.com/~josephb/
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wrote:

I wouldn't bet too much money on that joe. :-) I've been a participant in rec.ww for coming up on 10 years. If you do a google search on "split the group", you will note that this proposal comes up every now and again with various discussions pro and con for splitting the group, which has occasionally included someone calling for a moderated group as well. It's not that folks on this group are unknowledgeable of the possibilities, this just hasn't been seen as a needed change.

Not saying it won't happen, but given past history, it seems very unlikely. Traffic figures are probably realistic, problems quoted are most likely overstated. Most trollish problems have been resolved through filters and kill-files.

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On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 21:37:12 -0700, Mark & Juanita

Moderators don't kill trolls, killfiles do ?
(with apologies to Newport's finest)
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Actually, those are just the kinds of conditions that seem to suggest what Joe is predicting. If a group regularly goes through discussions of splits, there's a higher than usual chance that it's headed towards a split or some sort of reorg. The fact that someone actually went as far as submitting and RFD, just bumps the probabilities even higher, or the timeline that much closer, for the event being realized.
ru
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I'm not familiar with the screenplays discussion, so I hope I'm not making an obvious point here, but... Yes, it's possible, likely even, that within a couple of years we'll have another troll infestation and some of the more motivated, technical, and participating folks in the group will have had enough to fix it. Right now, the S:N ratio is held good enough by killfiles and/or a "trollfilter" that one of the members has developed. The "usual suspect" is away at the moment (...or maybe he's got a webtv account now...), but he's almost immediately recognizable so that's more a gnat than a real problem.
So, yes, maybe at some point a moderated group will be appropriate, but this proposal is at the wrong time, from the wrong person, for the wrong reasons.
Dave Hinz
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snipped-for-privacy@usask.ca wrote in

Well, the wording of your original statement (topic space... can be made usable) implies the replacement of the current group with the moderated group (yes, I recognize that the way things work right now, a true replacement isn't possible). It may not be obvious to everyone reading this thread that both a mod and a non-mod group can exist in parallel.
With both groups potentially existing, two questions arise: firstly, would the new .mod group attract enough readership to be viable (and, as you say, the vote will reveal that; I suspect the answer will be no, but we shall see); and secondly if the proposed moderators understand and are capable of doing what they propose (which I do not beleive to be the case, and on which grounds I'll vote no if the proposal reaches a CFV).
John
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On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 19:23:26 +0100, Andy Dingley

Barely posted is right. DAGS of Groups and Web shows nothing except the current proposal.
I too think the idea is a non-starter. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/wgoffeney/Woodworking/Woodworking.htm
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On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 19:23:26 +0100, Andy Dingley
remove ns from my header address to reply via email

I'm not commenting on the thread, so I only post here. How does Don Vito manage to send a message to thge wreck, but make it that my reply _only_ goes to news.groups? ***************************************************** I know I am wrong about just about everything. So I am not going to listen when I am told I am wrong about the things I know I am right about.
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There is a 'magic incantation' to do that automatically.
Look at the 'full headers' of the original posting.
See the header named "Followup-To:"?
Care to guess what it's purpose is? <grin>
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On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 19:23:26 +0100, Andy Dingley
remove ns from my header address to reply via email
I agree.

***************************************************** I know I am wrong about just about everything. So I am not going to listen when I am told I am wrong about the things I know I am right about.
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http://www.pacificnet.net/~johnr/cgi/aesop1.cgi?srch&fabl/TheDogintheManger
vaguely proposed a theory

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Amen to what Dave & LRod said. Completely civilized is usually boring.
I filter out all kinds of crap in analog life. My own filters. Why should digital life be any different?
Patriarch
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On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 19:01:41 +0100, LRod

Ditto.
Every moderated NG I've seen either stunk or died when the moderator lost interest. They were all slow to post, reminding me of the old Fidonet groups.
Has this "Vito" ever posted here about woodworking?
I also don't see how eBay and For Sale posts for tools or equipment are hurting this group. Maybe Vito can be the king of his own Yahoo group.
I prefer self-moderation. Filters and proxies are available for free if someone wants them. Heck, Robert B. even graciously writes proxy rules for those who can't or don't want to! <G>
Barry
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On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 20:13:53 +0000, B a r r y wrote:

According to Google Groups, our pal Vito posted fairly regularly throughout the first half of '02, then disappeared. Mysteriously on Sept 4 a handful of utterly contentless posts (much like this one) appeared with his name.
As far as I can tell, Susan Welchel has never posted here.
Good luck, Vito, old boy. I'll be staying right here if you don't mind.
--
Joe Wells


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Tue, Sep 7, 2004, 12:37am (EDT+4) snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com (VitoKuhn) skipped his meds: <SNIP>
I bet you'd try to suck the fun out of a rock.
JOAT A clear case of sub-optimization with respect to the ratio of effort to enhanced effects. - Myki
Attaboy: http://www.dailywav.com/0702/attaboy5.wav
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On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 16:33:52 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@webtv.net (J T) wrote:

Simple, succinct, eloquent -- I love it! :-)
Much better than the wordy response I came up with.

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There are numerous ways to filter out the junk. Many applications are very effective. Personally, I dislike moderated groups although they might be of value to some people. A moderator may omit posts which are actually related to woodworking, and I tend to read "slightly off" topic posts (remember the shop dog that passed away?) Plus, moderated groups delay posts and I occasionally I appreciate quick responses.
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I too dislike moderated newsgroups. Even normally fair moderators can occasionally act against the best interest of the group (everyone has his/her own agenda now and then). I can filter out people I don't want to hear from pretty effectively even with OE. I prefer I have that control rather than some moderator I don't know and have no way to judge.
Do you really want someone else deciding what you can read? That's what a moderated Ng is.
If you want that, there are thousands of email lists and forums that are moderated and the owner/moderator can decide for you what you are allowed to read, and you will never even know what you might have missed.

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wrote:

Seems like we have an answer to the question, "Who died and made you newsgroup monitor?" ;-)
More seriously, it will be interesting to see if very many respond to this request positively. rec.ww has its own unique flavor, but it is akin to a real-world shop, where people talk about all sorts of things in addition to the wood project de' jour.
To summarize: I don't think a new group such as this would be very interesting, nor a very good idea.

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