On Saturday, September 26, 2015 at 5:25:08 PM UTC-5, Swingman wrote:
Well now Karl... if that happened the people pissing on one another might n
ot have any excuse when they splash on someone else. How many of these thr
eads are derailed because someone gets butt hurt because they thought someo
ne was doubting their expertise, then only to find that lost in pages of co
mmentary the offensive comments weren't aimed at them, or may not even be t
aken in context?
It certainly hasn't escaped the old hands here (including those that abando
ned ship long ago) that the longest threads have nothing to do with woodwor
king. The most active and longest threads are always people fighting with
one another about their personal opinions.
On 9/29/2015 12:48 AM, email@example.com wrote:
You know all this Festool stuff can be traced right back to him. ;~)
I recall him pointing me to a European YouTube video showing their new
Domino being used by their tradesmen a year or two before they were
I'm quite certain Festool was here long before that as Robert/Robatoy
could never say enough about the Rotex sander that he used to sand and
polish his counter tops.. IIRC he was on his second one.
He was my pusher that helped me see the light.
On Tuesday, September 29, 2015 at 8:47:50 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
Doing the work I do, we had some entertaining conversations about buying th
e Fein oscillating tool. He had one that he bought after much consideratio
n, and he loved it. I never could justify the tool (15 - 20 years ago blad
es were still $25 each on average) and he couldn't see how I could live wit
hout it. He used his constantly. After I bought my first inexpensive model
, I couldn't either.
Then we had a some great conversation and there was a lot of consternation
about the great biscuit debate that swelled up here on occasion. He used a
Lamello A LOT, and he was the only one I knew that used the absolute daylig
hts out of a biscuit machine at that time. He used them to align and join
some of his work where connectors couldn't be used. Until Rob described it
(and was actually doing it regularly) I would never have thought of joinin
g two perpendicular surfaces with biscuits. Like me, he found through pract
ical experience the biscuit added a great deal to certain types of joinery.
He was the first one I knew that had a 23ga. pinner. Honestly, with no hea
ds on the pins I had difficult figuring out what to do with one of those, e
ven if I had one. He was applying different moldings, finishing pieces and
all other kinds of appliques to work on occasion and he gave the run down
on it. He had a Grex (sp?) long before they even sold them down here.
I don't know how he did it, but he always seem to be right on top of any ki
nd of tool innovations, especially those with any value. I too remember hi
s delight with the Rotex sander, and being a champion of that tool. I used
a Bosch sander at that time that was 90% of the Festool for 20% of the pri
ce. I had to have a shop vac attached to mine to sand inside an occupied h
ome and got a little dust, and he had the Festool with a shop vac (don't re
call it being a Festool, but some other Euro brand)and got no dust. I reme
mber that he used the Rotex long and hard enough to actually kill it, and h
e was kind of pleased with himself for that.
Gone too soon...
On 9/29/2015 9:54 AM, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
I don't think it was that long ago, I bought a 3 Pack for $72 in 2006.
Anyway thank goodness that the patent ran out and competition brought
the prices down.
I started using biscuits in 1989. I gutted and rebuilt the kitchen in
our other home and used what I thought to be a load of biscuits. I
recall buying #20's in boxes of a thousand a couple of times. Thinking
of today, I am on the verge of buying my 3rd box of 5mm 1,800 count
Dominoes and I am about in the middle of a 6mm replacement box.
Karl turned me on the the 23 gauge pinner. I bought a Grex about 7~8
years ago. I love that thing and use it more often than I expected.
IIRC it came with 1,000 pins in each size/length that it would shoot.
I have bought 3 replacement boxes of 10K in different lengths. They are
great at replacing a clamp on light glue ups.
That he was!
IIRC a Fein
In 2008 I refaced a neighbors kitchen. I cut my own 1/8" thick maple
veneer for the cabinets and built the maple doors. He was retired and
at home when I came back to sand the joints of the veneer. I used my a
pinner to hold the veneers while the glue dried, regular wood glue not
contact cement. Anyway before I got there he had masked off all the
cabinet openings with newspaper, card board, and tape. He said he would
wipe the counters down and mop after I sanded. I sanded with the Rotex
and with the FT finish sander along with the FT vac while he took a nap.
I was finished long before his hour nap was over and he could not
believe that there was no visible dust.
I remember that he used the
On 9/25/2015 1:26 PM, email@example.com wrote:
> unrelated to Sonny's fine table and great work.
It's how newsgroups work. Interesting threads evolve into other
interesting threads that evolve into controversial threads that evolve
into pissing contests that eventually die.
The best thing to do when you lose interest is to ignore the thread and
go to another one that interests you. The worst thing to do is
participate in a thread that no longer interests you.
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
I observed no one using Festools on work sites. Since I don't spend my
life observing work sites, I asked people who do spend all their work
time at job sites. This added to my observation. Next, another guy that
does spend his workday on job sites, in another part of the country,
also noticed no one using Festools. This also added weight to my
observations.. Next, the number one promoter of Festools on this site,
stated his guess is 1 in 200 professionals use Festools. I don't put
much weight in that, as it is at best an assumption, or guess, but his
opinion is valuable, based on his experience. My guess would be more
like 1 in 50, maybe 1 in 100, but that is only based on a guess. I'm
reasonably certain that there use is much less common that other
quality, yet much cheaper tools.
I'm sorry, I guess I should pay more attention to what you, a hobbyist
that can't cut a straight line, and an idiot, has to say on the subject
than my first hand observations along with comments from seasoned
professionals that do this stuff for a living. My bad.
Yes, by continuing to discuss this with an idiot. I'll try to button up
and ignore your rambling, senseless, and often caustic babble.
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
True, but then that's why I asked a bunch of guys that spend their
entire working life of job sites what they use, and none, not one, used
Festools, and a surprising number didn't know they existed.
I have never seen a
I've seen all those brand name tools on job sites. Just not Festool.
If a tree falls in the middle of
Very true. That's why I took the time to ask around last time we had
this discussion. Also, I noted that Nailshooter also never saw anyone
other than you and Swing use them. This certainly does not mean no one
uses them, but it means considerably more than squat.
I believe you. I suspect, based on what I've seen, and what Nailshooter
has seen, and on my small survey, that the sitings are underwhelming.
Well your wrong about that. I'm the only hobbyist I'm around. I am
around lots of people in the trades, just no hobbyists.
We who earn a pay
I've earned money working with my tools, just that it was never my
primary source of income. The folks I asked earn their living solely
working in the trades.
Not to get picky, but I never talked to you, or Swing. I know a few on
this group use Festools. The fact, and it is a fact, that I've never
witnessed anyone, other than on TV, using Festools, and 0 "ZERO" percent
of the guys I've personally questioned on the subject use Festools means
more than "squat", at least to me.
I'm not so "stubborn" to think this means NO ONE uses Festools.
I am too "stubborn" to think you need Festools to build quality
furniture, bathrooms, kitchens or even to cut a straight line or suck up
Also I'm too "stubborn" to think Festool is the only quality tool out
there, plenty of high quality tools out there at cheaper prices, and
I've seen all of them on job sites, just not Festool.
Rather than "stubborn", I'd prefer to call it experience, but I can live
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
Jack I suspect that it is going to take a particular type pro that wants
exacting standards to find one that works on location and might benefit
from using Festool. If you remember Robatoy, he was one of those guys.
I really did not know this caliber of tool was available until he
brought my attention to it.
FWIW most trades guys, especially down her in the south, are immigrants
that were simply looking for a job before becoming a carpenter. They
simply use the cheapest available equipment and then use a lot of caulk
to hide the imperfections.
And some of the guys on the job are not looking for better, they simply
want to do it they way they have always done it.
Anyway I would venture to say Tommy Silva uses Festool.
I have see all of these brands too, just not those particular type tools
in the brands listed.
You also have to understand that crews are less likely to use the
expensive tools vs. an individual.
AAMOF there are plenty of "pro's" on YouTube that demonstrate their work
truck set ups and you do see plenty of Festool on those locations, shops
If you go to the Festool web site there are plenty of pro's that have
That is absolutely true but it is so much easier and more efficient with
On Monday, September 21, 2015 at 9:36:34 AM UTC-5, Jack wrote:
If I were the only one using my tools and they didn't get pretty rough trea
tment sometimes I would consider Festool. 40 years ago, my fellow wood cho
ppers were horrified that I spent $95 on a genuine Milwaukee "Hole Shooter"
, when a perfectly serviceable commercial grade Porter Cable (when they wer
e worth having) drill could be had for $60. It runs to this day, and only
missed a few days of work when I wore out the trigger. Before screw guns,
before impact drivers, or anything else that drove screws as a dedicated to
ol, we had VSR drills to use, and that was mine.
I bought the very best I could at the time and it turned out to be a great
choice. Repeat the same scenario with my first heavy duty circular. Getti
ng away from those old Porter Cable saws of the day was a blessing in its s
But in those days, I used the tools myself and carpenters were expected to
buy their own tools. Now, carpenters/workers have a few tools, usually rea
l crap, and they expect to use or at least borrow yours. I hate it, but it
is the nature of the beast. Then of course, there are the guys that borro
w and "didn't remember to bring it back". Another scenario is that like me
, you leave tools behind to go check on other work as a supervisor, not wor
king as a full time, dedicated site guy sent to do a specific job. Guys co
me and go when you aren't there, and so do your tools.
Lsst, the thing that bothers me the most is the guys don't take care of the
tools. No just mine, some of them not even their own. So it doesn't make
to use tools that will be stolen, abused or misplaced. The guys that are o
ut on the job today were raised in a disposable society, and they think of
tools as just that. I haven't worked with carpenters in years that can sha
rpen a chisel on site, regrind the head of a Phillips screwdriver or bit, k
now how to adjust a framing square to true, or have the "hand" to cut a scr
ibed line with a circular saw that needs no trim to cover it. I am afraid
those days are gone.
Yep. And based on what I posted above, you can see why. If I had a Festoo
l drill that cost $500 and left it on site while I went to another job, and
the guy I left it with found it gone when he got back from taking a whiz,
I would be undone. Same if I heard the "it was an accident" story when it
was knocked off the scaffold. Accidents always happen, but I have noticed
they seem to happen a lot more with my tools than they do with theirs.
No, stuff sells for what it's worth. It really is that simple. If
you don't believe that, you need to go back to Economics 101.
Your opinion is wrong, of course. I may have a few Festools but it's
not because they're expensive. Most users are *not* hobbyists.
Clearly if they were meant for hobbyists there wouldn't be the big
emphasis on the Systainer system. They're just another case to me,
and not as good as a good blow-mold case at that.
Since you've never used Festools, your opinion isn't worth more than
the hot air it is. The fact is that you're wrong.
Of course, because you say so right? I actually took the time to ask a
bunch of people in the business, and not one, not ONE used Festools.
Some didn't even know what they were, and it's what they do for a
living. Others simple said they are far too expensive. For a closer
view, here is what one of our own (nailshooter) just said:
"Agreeing with you Karl, finding he exact fit of
price/utility/performance is the real key to what a tool is worth.
Excepting you and Leon whom I know both use your Festool(s)extensively
and constantly, _I know of no one else that does._"
And what exactly is your profession, or are you a hobbyist?
I've been using tools my entire life, been woodworking for going on 60
years. I know good tools, junk tools, and overpriced tools. Why is it
only Festool owners get their panties in a bunch when someone doesn't
get on their knees at the mention of their beloved Festool? If you
don't trust my answer, you could email Festool marketing dept, I'm sure
they could tell you.
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
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