Who actually owns this 1,000 gallon propane tank? (2023 Update)

[Alex Gunderson]

Hi Krw, The ONE company I won't be calling will be Amerigas! :)

Here's what I know, so far ...

1. There are no disclosures, nor liens recorded related to the propane tank, at either the state department level, or at the county level. Note: In-person searches pending but title company searches completed.

1. The tank was manufactured by Roy E. Hanson Jr. Mfg Phone: [phone]

2. Hanson sold that tank to Surburban Propane of Whippany NY Phone: [phone]

1. The National Board record will likely corroborate that sale: Phone: [phone] (response pending)

2. The local Suburban Propane has never put any tank at my address: Phone: [phone]

1. Amerigas bought Heritage Propane for .9 billion on Jan 12, 2012: ibtimes.com/amerigas-buy-heritage-propane-29-billion-324045 amerigas.com/amerigas-propane-blog/amerigas-propane/news/amerigas-partners-announces-completion-of-heritage-propane-acquisition/

2. Presumably, Heritage Propane felt they owned my tank (reasons unknown).

1. Presumably, Amerigas feels they own my tank (again, unsubstantiated as yet).

So, the question is ... Who owns that tank?

More importantly, how is a lowly homeowner supposed to figure this out? The title company "advisor" said I clearly own it, until someone proves otherwise, in which case, I may have a claim against the seller's real-estate agent.

I have never exercised such a claim in my life, so I'd prefer not to go through that (I've never sued anyone and I'm not a young man).

I'd prefer to simply know who owns that tank!

[Alex Gunderson]

I guess it's like swapping out the regulators. Or replacing the earthquake tie-down straps. You wouldn't expect to get a new permit for that.

But I don't know how this permit stuff works so I'm just guessing based on the fact the guy told me that they definitely do NOT write down the serial number of the propane tank in the permit & inspection process.

[Alex Gunderson]

That's interesting.

Googling, the welding supply propane regulators don't seem to look anything like the tank regulators.

Here is a cite for the welding supply propane regulators:

Here is what the propane tank regulators look like:

[Alex Gunderson]

Yup. On the two regulators (red and gray) at the tank itself, there is a date stamp on each regulator.

There is no date stamp on the two regulators (brown and gray) that are at the generator and house accordingly.

[Ed Pawlowski]

You brought that up before. I don't see the title company even knowing about the tank It is not real property so it would not be covered. Same category as the paint can left in the garage. Unless there was a previous dispute, no lien would exist.

Forget that silliness. Tanks are not registered like automobiles.

If Suburban and its heirs had the proper records, they may own it. If no one can prove ownership, by default possession probably you do.

[Alex Gunderson]

That was my exact experience with Amerigas.

They checked it once, tagged the kitchen grill, and then left and never came back for inspection (until I called them for the BBQ last week).

So, I suspect I should probably pay the $100 each (roughly) to have an inspection by the four local companies that are in the coop, and just have them all set up, and do an at-will call to choose the cheapest at the time that I start running down to about 40% or so.

[Alex Gunderson]

I don't ever get those coupons!

But then again, I have a contractual price, based on something like 56 cents above a published wholesale price, as explained here:

[Alex Gunderson]

The interesting thing is that I've concluded propane tanks are actually like no other property attached to the residence. None of the examples are even remotely similar, is what I've been concluding.

Looks like I'm not the only one to conclude that.

Look at this tax-related PDF I found trying to figure out whether an LPG tank is real or personal property in the state of California.

PROPERTY TAX RULE 153 LIQUEFIED PETROLEUM GAS TANKS

Here's what it says inside (and I heartily agree):

"Contrary to the CAA's assertion, there is ample justification for treating propane tanks differently, to-wit, that no other type of personal or real property is similar. The CAA itself provides good examples of just how unique propane tanks are."

They go on a bit later, saying: "Propane tanks are unique in that they are often located on a lessee's property, but cannot be used or "consumed" by the lessee."

Note: They do state there are 300,000 LPG tanks in use in California, essentially all of which are not owned by the homeowner.

[Alex Gunderson]

I had a long conversation with the "advisor" at the title company. He was strong about it. It's real property. I too thought it might be personal property, but his point was that it is clearly attached as a fixture to the house. And, it is.

Of course, it matters not what anyone "thinks"; what matters is how case law in California treats a propane tank.

Googling for "Propane tank, California, real property or personal property" I find this PDF which implies the industry wants propane tanks to be considered "personal property", but that the state disagrees.

"Industry, the Western Propane Gas Association, disagrees with staff's recommendation. Industry believes butane and propane tanks should be classified as personal property." [versus being classified as "improvements" by the state]

And, we know that improvements are, by definition, real property in California (but not in other states).

For exampnle, here's a NJ lawyer saying it's real property (in NJ):

Yet, here's a CA site which clearly mimics what we found in the tax document:

REAL PROPERTY in CALIFORNIA: "Tanks, butane, propane and water softener, unburied but which remain in place, except household"

So, it's pretty clear. The "industry" feels that propane tanks in California are "personal property" (and so do some states, such as NJ); but the state of California is pretty clear that it's "real property" (and they tax it accordingly, as improvements).

[krw]

In my other house (currently rented and under contract), the 250gal propane tank is rented. I think they wanted something like $500 ($1500 if buried) for it, IIRC. The rental is $45/year. There was no way I'd buy it.

Right.

...and if I change my mind, I want to get rid of it without issue. When we sold the house there was a question about the tank. Don't want it (no fireplace and no gas stove), fine. Take it out.

[Alex Gunderson]

This is not even close to a similar example to propane. For one, your water isn't delivered by a commercial truck. Nor is the water stored in a big tank leased or owned by you. For another, you don't have a choice of water companies. For yet another, the water company is a regulated monopoly.

[Alex Gunderson]

I'm going to pull this out and make it a separate question. I'll snap some pictures in the daylight, tomorrow.

[Alex Gunderson]

Here is a summary of why there may be so much confusion regarding the status of propane tanks.

The propane tanks are considered real property in some states (notably California & NY), while, the exact same setup is personal property in other states. Also, there is absolutely no example that equates to how propane tanks are treated in all states.

This explains why all the examples proposed so far (e.g., cars, electricity, telephone, garbage, etc., were clearly *not* equivalent examples!). These examples might apply in some states; but they don't in California.

In fact the Western Propane industry argues vehemently that propane tanks are unique, and that there are no parallels (which I've come to appreciate, since I can easily shoot down any example anyone provides).

However, the state of California seems to think the following are equivalent: water softener tanks, butane tanks, propane tanks, coffee makers, soft drink dispensers, water coolers, cardboard box folding machines, sorters and medical test equipment.

Yet, the Western Propane industry group clearly says propane tanks are unique in that the propane tank itself is not consumed by the lessee. In fact, the lessee of a propane tank cannot touch or handle the tank in any way, by law. Propane tanks are unique in that they are often located on a lessee's property, but cannot be used or "consumed" by the lessee, unlike gas tanks and water tanks.

Interestingly, for NY state, propane tanks are apparently capital improvements to real property (as in California): "The issue raised is whether the installation of certain liquid propane gas tanks constitutes a capital improvement to real property"

Yet, in Tennessee, propane tanks are personal property:

In Missouri, the propane tanks are clearly personal property:

In Alabama, propane tanks are considered personal property:

Given that most states consider a propane tank personal property, yet, others (e.g., CA and NY apparently) consider it real property, that now explains *why* there is no need to file the UCC-1 in California.

It seems that, in the states where the tanks are personal property, the UCC-1 needs to be filed; however, the UCC-1 is apparently meaningless in states where the tanks are considered real property.

This key distinction between personal property laws in California and NY versus most of the other states explains away all the confusion.

Only in the personal property states do you need to file the UCC-1 to maintain your claim on propane tanks:

[Alex Gunderson]

Here's a clear reference showing propane tanks to be considered "improvements" to real property in the state of California.

To wit: "Propane tanks, unburied but which remain in place, are listed in Rule 124 as an example of an *improvement*"

[jan]

Why not file an unclaimed property report with the state?

[CRNG]

On Tue, 1 Oct 2013 09:56:18 +0000 (UTC), Alex Gunderson wrote in Re Re: Who actually owns this 1,000 gallon propane tank?:

How can "gas tanks and water tanks" be "consumed" by the lessee?

[dadiOH]

No but it sounds as if your current gas company would have extreme difficulty proving that the tank is NOT yours.

[trader4]

He could try calling dear leader Obama. He knows everything and is all about helping the common guy. But, maybe there is no one there to help him today. The govt appears to be shut down. Probably a good thing too. If Obama helps Alex like he's helped so many with Obamacare, his propane price will double, the cost of the tank will be $5K, he'll no longer be able to keep his existing gas company and he'll be down to a 29 hour work week. Unless he works for a company with about

53 employees. Then maybe he'll be one of the 4 with no job at all.

[Stormin Mormon]

And, it will all be Bush's fault? Obama's from the government, he's here to help.

. Christopher A. Young Learn about Jesus

.

[Alex Gunderson]

I suspect nobody has a bill of sale.

That's why they haven't come to get it.

In addition, if it's "real property", they should have a lien on file at the county recorder's office - so I'm off to there today at lunch.

It would be nice if there is a lawyer in the group who can doublecheck my revelation that the propane tanks in California (and perhaps NY) are actually considered real property, instead of personal property.

I can't be the only one on the planet to have figured that out.