OT: Health insurance

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I can't remember the source, but I've heard many times that if Canadians want real medical care (like heart surgery) they come to the USA. And if Americans want care, they go to Mexico.
. Christopher A. Young Learn about Jesus www.lds.org .
On 8/16/2013 7:30 AM, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

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Christopher Young, while improperly top-posting, wrote:

There are thousands of medical procedures done in Canada every day. There is no way that the US health-care system could perform even a fraction of those on a daily basis starting today and continuing indefinately.
My dad had off-pump beating-heart bypass surgery 11 years ago in the university hospital in the city where I live. That same hospital was one of the first to perform cardiac robotic surgery in the world.
So go take your idiotic, patriot-fueled ideas about Canadian health-care and shove them straight back into your ass where they belong.
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On 8/16/2013 8:12 AM, Homo Gay wrote:

Oh my God! Someone got up Homo Gay's ass. ^_^
TDD
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I didn't know he was a proctologist? Gives a special view of the world, looking up every day.
. Christopher A. Young Learn about Jesus www.lds.org .
On 8/16/2013 9:40 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:

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On 8/16/2013 9:12 AM, Home Guy wrote:

One of the better features of Canadian healthcare is their system for handling medical malpractice. So, one has to wait six months for a hip or knee replacement? Lose weight and exercise to get in shape for it. Probably took 50-60 years to wear out the first one :o)
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Norminn wrote:

Punative dammage awards are capped - if they even exist at all up here. Pain and suffering awards don't run into the millions like they do in the US. Doesn't matter if we're talking about medical matters or other stuff (product liability, etc).
Your legal system is killing your obstetrics and gynecological professions, making those doctors harder to come by.

Many hip replacements are done on an emergency basis. Old person falls, breaks hip, must be seen and fixed within 24 hours. Our system can handle those.
Elective knee and hip surgery is a moving target. Many people technically need them, few WANT to undergo the surgery, they put up with the pain and/or reduced mobility, so when they're scheduled for it they really don't care what the wait-time is.
The few that make noises about getting it done sooner (younger, more active, etc) get moved up the list and are seen in a reasonable time frame.
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I have American relatives by marriage who have lived and worked in Canada. The older one and his wife recently retired to the USA but made sure to become Canadian citizens before doing so, so that if faced with high-cost medical treatment in the USA they can always return to Canada for low-cost or even free treatment.
The younger one laments the high cost of health insurance in the USA and reminds us of the paltry cost of her pregnancies and deliveries in Canada -- not to mention the paid pregnancy and maternity leave.
A while back I saw a TV program about Americans going to Thailand for surgery by US-trained surgeons for a small fraction of US costs.
Perce
On 08/16/13 07:40 am, Stormin Mormon wrote:

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“As if govt is soooo efficient and economical. If it is, why are we getting crushed to death here in NJ with some of the highest property taxes in the country? Why is California, which is closest to socialist Europe, almost bankrupt? “
Because all the tax money in those states is going to fund the lazy incompe tent government union workers’ fat pensions and completely free health ca re and I don’t mean the police and fire workers who actually work.
“And why is it that the free market system can deliver a hamburger, an automobile or auto insurance at reasonable prices?”
Stuff that nobody really needs or want or gets screwed by. If you’re too incompetent to cook your own hamburger then you shouldn’t be allowed to l ive. The automobiles are designed for idiot gadget junkies. They’re full of BS stuff that has nothing to do with getting from one place to another but wi ll cost you thousands of dollars to have repaired so the companies can at l ast make the profit that they didn’t make when they sold the vehicle. As soon as there is an accident the first thing that the insurance company lawyers try to do is to see where they can find a loophole in which fine pr int so that they don’t have to pay. People only think they have insurance . In reality the only thing the insurance card is good for is so you can re new your registration and not get a citation. “Then housing should be a non-profit public good too. So should food. How about clothing? Then we have some examples of things that are run by the govt that aren't doing their job.”
Housing, food and clothing are not exigencies like health care. Not having them isn’t like being bitten by a snake, rushed to the hospital and getti ng a bill for $55,000 because they can and your only choices are to pay or die.
“Where does the USA public schools rank today in terms of educating our children?”
U.S. public schools are a complete failure due to the teachers unions being given anything they want by the politicians.
“Obamacare was providing insurance to what, 30mil people? So, to fix a "problem" for 10% of the population, you don't care what happens to the other 90%?”
That so called 90% was either at some point in the 10%, is in the 10% but w on’t know it until his policy is cancelled due to some loop-hole or will be in the 10% when they get laid-off because the CEO has stolen all the com pany money and went to Bermuda on his yacht.
“Also, witness that this recovery is unique in that most of the jobs being created are part-time. Why do you think that is?”
There are several reasons for that: 1.    Failure of the public school system and society in general to emphasize STEM. 2.    The U.S. government kissing Chinese dumplings. 3.    Tax breaks for companies that outsource. 4.    Not holding CEOs accountable to making a profit for their companies inst ead of themselves.
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On Friday, August 16, 2013 11:14:46 AM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

petent government union workers’ fat pensions and completely free health care and I don’t mean the police and fire workers who actually work.

Yes, that's a big part of it and precisely my point.

Good grief. Nobody needs a car, car insurance, or food? The point went right over your head. The price of all kinds of goods and services in a free market economy is at a reasonable level. We need to understand why those same free market forces are not working in healthcare.
If you’re too incompetent to cook your own hamburger then you shouldn’ t be allowed to live.

BS stuff that has nothing to do with getting from one place to another but will cost you thousands of dollars to have repaired so the companies can at last make the profit that they didn’t make when they sold the vehicle.

y lawyers try to do is to see where they can find a loophole in which fine print so that they don’t have to pay. People only think they have insuran ce. In reality the only thing the insurance card is good for is so you can renew your registration and not get a citation.


g them isn’t like being bitten by a snake, rushed to the hospital and get ting a bill for $55,000 because they can and your only choices are to pay o r die.

Total nonsense. Food, housing and clothing are every bit as necessary as healthcare. And the being bitten by a snake and having some critical urgent need is but one small part of the overall cost of healthcare.

ng given anything they want by the politicians.

won’t know it until his policy is cancelled due to some loop-hole or wil l be in the 10% when they get laid-off because the CEO has stolen all the c ompany money and went to Bermuda on his yacht.

e STEM.

stead of themselves.
Sure dream on. And the fact that they can avoid providing health insurance mandated by Obamacare isn't the big factor? All the things you listed, not that I agree with them, have been around for decades. Yet, only now are we having a weak recovery with part time jobs.
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On Fri, 16 Aug 2013 09:23:48 -0700 (PDT), " snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net"

It's no mystery. It's because third party pays, either insurance of teh gvt. So no one cares what it costs. Look at the difference between what a vet charges (and makes) and a doctor. The level of skill is similar, being a vet is probably harder although at least your patients can't complain and are very unlikely to sue you. But with veterinary care the owner pays directly, very few have pet insurance, so the owners CARE what it's going to cost to treat their animal. If the day comes when enough pet owners buy pet-vet insurance then the third party pays scheme will cause vet care to go thru the ceiling and poor folks who can't afford pet-vet insurance will not be able to afford to have their pets treated. I already have seen huge increases in what vet care costs over the past decade and more and more see them pushing for pet-vet insurance.

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You don't even need to go that far. Look at the difference in price (and in inflation) between what a plastic surgeon gets when the person pays for it and when it is covered by insurance. Fascinating look.
--
America is at that awkward stage. It's too late
to work within the system, but too early to shoot
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On 8/17/2013 9:38 AM, Kurt Ullman wrote:

What does a month of renal dialysis cost?
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On Saturday, August 17, 2013 5:16:18 AM UTC-4, Ashton Crusher wrote:

competent government union workers’ fat pensions and completely free heal th care and I don’t mean the police and fire workers who actually work.


According to economics 101, it matters as much as the cost of anything else to the third party that is paying it, provided of course that the third party is a private, for profit company. I gave auto insurance as an example. We have a competitive market there, and the rates, for the most part, are not exorbitant or rising out of control year after year. Same thing with home insurance policies. Both of those are third party payer systems that are working well in the free market. The auto insurance one even has some of the same problems with exorbitant lawsuits that healthcare does.
Look at the difference

The level of

I think taking a look at what the differences are with vets would be an excellent idea. I've said for many years that what we need is an independent commission, with some people from the healthcare industry, but mostly people like Jack Welch and Andy Grove, to figure out why free market forces aren't working in healthcare. But I'm not buying that in the case of vets, the cost of treatment is entirely due to consumers paying directly. I agree, that can be part of it. But there are other major differences. Many of the expensive procedures for humans, eg bypass, organ transplants, aren't available for pets. And the vet hospital isn't treating a bunch of illegal alien dogs in the ER for free.
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On 08-17-2013 05:16, Ashton Crusher wrote:

The third party cares. Whether due to greed, concern for the patient, or what, all of them try to keep costs down. Some do it by vigilance to prevent docs from the sort of abuse you describe. Others do it by ignorant denial of needed services. And the government does it by flat out paying peanuts.
--
Wes Groleau

In any formula, constants (especially those obtained
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snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com writes:

I reject your premise.
Taxes are in line with salaries paid in the area.
I don't see how the verb "crushed" applies. NJ is a great place to live.
--
Dan Espen

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wrote:

As a serious question, how does one define and then quantify " in line with salaries"?
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As a serious answer:
I thought about how well I live. As a life-long computer programmer, I don't think I make an extraordinary amount but I live in a nice house in Berkeley Heights and work in NJ. BH just recently made the list of the top 6 number of places to live.
So, one wage earner, 40 hour week, nice home, all the food I want. How could I complain about "crushing" taxes?
--
Dan Espen

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wrote:

I am sorry, but to me this essentially boils down to I want to tax people based on what does or does not offend me personally. While I understand the sentiment, this is a lousy way to make tax policy. If I misunderstood, please feel free to correct me (seriously).
--
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Still serious? Okay. :)
In our town they set the tax rate in order to avoid a deficit. They aren't allowed a deficit and they aren't allowed to make large increases. It's a constant battle between providing services, good schools and holding the tax line.
This year they canceled spring bulk cleanup due to budget constraints.
I don't see any tax "policy" issue, they have certain constraints and certain expenditures they feel they must make.
But my comment was about "crushing" taxes.
I'm not a doctor, lawyer, CEO, or even executive. Yet I can live in one of NJ's nicest towns. I'm far from being crushed.
Sure taxes are higher than they are in the boondocks of Pennsylvania (I guess), but we make more too. I'm finding it entirely affordable.
--
Dan Espen

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On Friday, August 16, 2013 6:08:10 PM UTC-4, net cop wrote:


. If it is, why are


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in

he


Tell us what your property tax bill is. Then tell us about how a senior citizen living on social security might feel about that bill. I'm sure a lot of folks here will get a good laugh at that, because their's is probably less than half that for a similar house.
First you have the feds taking 25 to 35% of what we make. Then the state comes along and takes another 5 to 9%. Then you have a property tax bill of $10K. Buy a car or just about anything else and they take 7%. And then when you buy something, it costs more in NJ because, among other things, the businesses are taxed and regulated to death. Buy or sell a house, there is a transfer tax on the sale. Happen to be luck enough to make a profit, well the state wants a cut of that too. But then guys like you just think it's all peachy keen and that's how the politicians keep getting away with it. Oh, and the state is $50bil in debt, because even with the high taxes, they're still pissing away more than they take in.
Some good examples of that are our fine public servants. They have a career of 20 years or so, retire at a fat, full pension we pay for. The week after they retire, they show up at another govt agency in another $100K a year job. That is what is crushing us.

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