About recalls for runaway cars.

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Prove it.

Reply to
trader4
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Well, I said I was done with this topic and it has motored on without me. But I think I'll jump back in one more time.

A Google search on "left foot braking reaction times" without the quotes turns up quite a bit of stuff. Much of it mirrors the controversy here. There are many, many threads and forums that deteriorate the way this one has. You've got your LFB folks saying "it reduces reaction time" and your RFB folks saying you LFB folks are crazy, stupid, or reckless. Pick at least one.

Here is a 2006 LA Times article which basically wishy washes the issue:

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It says that "the time it takes to move the right foot from the accelerator to the brake is about 0.2 second". That is about a car length advantage at 60 mph if the LFB driver is covering the pedal. So it is not nearly 50 feet and is only there if the LFB driver is covering the pedal.

It also says that "General Motors human factors engineer Brian Kulie said the company lays out its pedals so that either the left or right foot can be used for braking, but the design is optimized for one-footed operation"

and that the NHTSA says ""It is an aspect of driver behavior we have never evaluated." and "In California, the Department of Motor Vehicles, which decides who gets licensed, also has no opinion on the matter. "

Actually, Google has failed to turn up any official reference to this as a failure point. The strongest I've found is a NJ driver's guide that says you "should" brake with the right foot. I would think it would say "must" if it was a failure point.

Click and Clack are divided on the issue:

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Tom says it is OK for older drivers, Ray says no. I'm starting to qualify as an older driver, but I'm not sure why it is limited to them.

Here is a link to a 1968 Popular Mechanics article where Dan Gurney says LFB is the preferred method.

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It is worth looking just for the blast from the past. A few pages up from the link is an article saying that Detroit automakers are asking for sanctions against Toyota and Nissan because they are importing 100,000 cars a year.

Here's a wild YouTube video showing a rally driver left foot braking:

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No, I'm not claiming that applies to street driving. It's just kind of fun. LFB also common on the race track. That's why it was taught to me in my emergency vehicle street driving course. Some race track handling techniques do apply there.

I kicked over this ant hill and am truly surprised by the amount of venom it attracted. I'd appreciate it if any replies to this post avoid the venom. I don't expect anyone to get converted.

It looks to me that LFB was a fad in the mid-60's and has faded away since.

-- Doug

Reply to
Douglas Johnson

You must be talking about a different system. I'm talking the "autostick" Officially called the Volkswagen Automatic Stickshift, this transmission was a three speed manual transmission connected to a vacuum-operated automatic clutch. When the driver put their hand on the gearshift the clutch would disengage by a 12volt solenoid operating the vacuum clutch, allowing shifting between gears, once they removed their hand the clutch would re-engage automatically. The transmission was also equipped with a torque converter, allowing the car to idle in gear, like an automatic. This transmission was first available on the 1968 Volkswagen Beetle, and was made available on the Karmann Ghia in 1969. VW dropped the transmission option altogether in

1976.

I've both driven and worked on them.

Reply to
clare

Chrysler had push button starting in the early 30's (1933 Chrysler) but foot operated starters will still relatively common through the fourties. Just about all had dash mounted push-button or key operated starters in the fifties.

1948 Olds still had a foot operated starter, so I'm pretty sure your '38 Chevvie did too. Hudson/Nash had foot starters up to '55, Stude to '54, and some Chevy trucks up 'till '59.

As a general rule, MOST vehicles had moved away from the floor mounted starter by the time they went to 12 volt systems

The dimmer on the floor was pretty well standard on American cars up into the early '80s and on trucks into the '90s.

Reply to
clare

quoted text -

You need to learn to "drive ahead", or "drive defensively". I've said it before, and I'll say it again, Ashton - you are a DANGEROUS driver. Glad you are not near me. There are enough like you on the road up here.

If you lift your foot in anticipation, you gain a REAL 50 feet - much more dependable than "virtual". If you "drive ahead" you can anticipate what the next 5 -10 cars ahead of you are going to do, and generally slow down enough WITHOUT USING YOUR BRAKES to handle the situation.

And one day it will get you.

Reply to
clare

it to confirm

and manuals.

Your driving is NOT defensive driving, jt is "reactionary" driving, and I would not call it GOOD driving.

As for "can't drive" I've driven competetively as well as "civily" for the better part of 45 years.

Reply to
clare

Nope. No centrigical clutch. A vacuum operated clutch, with the vacuum controlled by a solenoid valve operated by touching the gearshift lever. It also had a torque converter, like an automatic, that allowed the engine to idle in gear, and even pull away (sluggishly) in second gear.

Reply to
clare

Douglas Johnson wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

**IF** the driver is "covering the pedal". in an -emergency-,they probably will not be covering the pedal.

LFB is the primary cause of riding the brakes. If a driver has their braking foot on the gas pedal,it cannot be riding the brakes. I often see cars where the brake lights flick on and off when I know the driver isn't braking. They are LFBers. They are a hazard.

One important thing here; IMO,the majority of LFB drivers are NOT trained drivers,they're just poorly trained drivers. The good ones are the exception and not the rule. Thus it's a bad practice.

No offense meant.

Besides,doesn't it make sense to drive the same manner no matter what type of car you're driving? Consistency.

Reply to
Jim Yanik

transmission car on a "closed course". What he is doing is locking the rear wheels to induce oversteer ("hang out the tail") while burning the power through the front brakes. It's got NOTHING to do with stopping, believe me. It is a VERY effective way of tossing a lightweight front drive vehicle through corners on loose surfaces at INCREDIBLE speeds.

Also very effective at wearing out expensive competition braking material - a set of pads is good for MABEE two rallyes - generally they are replaced between events in performance rallying.

It can be usefull in "evasive action" - doing things that under normal conditions would net you a citation or two - - - -.

Reply to
clare

wrote

Along the same lines, the Smart (at least the Europe versions) have a manual transmission that shifts itself like an automatic. You let your foot off the gas and it disengages the clutch and sifts. The shifting is slow though, and took some getting used to the power lag. I was driving a ForFour and got 42 mpg over 1200 miles

Reply to
Ed Pawlowski

These thread are always the same. They go like this.

1 - Someone will post a comment about something and mention in passing that they LFB and make no other claim or say whether it's good or bad.

2 - someone else will feel compelled to say that the first poster is incredibly stupid for using their left foot and are endangering everyone else on the road blah blah blah.

3 - the original poster or someone else will say that there is not a thing wrong with LFB and present reasons why they feel it's as good or better.

2 - the anti-LFB faction will come unglued and start attacking the people who choose to LFB.

It's as predictable as the rising sun.

Reply to
Ashton Crusher

Cite?

Funny but I NEVER see brake lights flickering like that. Probably not once in a year. I think you are making it up.

Your sentence starting with IMO makes zero sense. Since you are making up the nonsense about all the flickering brake lights and we know from actual experience that there is no actual problem with people riding their brakes there therefore is no problem with people, poorly trained or otherwise, using their left foot.

How nice of you to call everyone who holds an opinion different then yours stupid and then claim you mean no offense. You are quite offensive. No offense meant.

Really? So having some cars with 3 speed manuals, some with 4 speeds, some with 5 speeds, some with 6 speeds and many with different shift patterns for first and reverse must be a HUGE problem since it's NOT consistent from car to car and surely that's going to create major confusion for drivers. And gosh, what about the inconsistency of some cars having the shifter on the steering column and some on teh console. How will the world ever survive with all the inconsistency drivers have to contend with. My my, I'm feeling faint, get the smelling salts, I having the vapors it's all just too too much.

Reply to
Ashton Crusher

quoted text -

I've explained it about 6 times. If you haven't got it figured it out by now there's nothing more I can do for you. Any further lessons you will have to pay for at my usual hourly rate, which at $50 is a bargain.

Reply to
Ashton Crusher

quoted text -

Your comments make it clear that you either didn't read what I wrote of don't comprehend it since what I laid out is the very essence of defensive driving X2.

Your comments make it clear that you either didn't read what I wrote of don't comprehend it since what I laid out is the very essence of defensive driving X2.

Your comments make it clear that you either didn't read what I wrote of don't comprehend it since what I laid out is the very essence of defensive driving X2.

And it's noted that as always, you and the others are completely unable to explain why you think using two feet when driving a car is incredibly confusing and will lead to certain death yet you have no problems at all flying in an airplane being piloted by a motorcycle rider. It shows just how inconsistent and irrational you people are on this subject.

Reply to
Ashton Crusher

it to confirm

and manuals.

up.  It's

case, I'm

Please quote where I have ever said I follow closer then anyone else. The only "elitist" know-it-all's here are harry and clare who claim to know what's best for everyone else. I've just stated my preference, I've never said I think you or anyone else is a hazard if you don't do it my way. But you and harry and clare and a few others keep claiming ANYONE who LFB is a hazard - you folks are the very epitome of "elitist" know-it-all's

Reply to
Ashton Crusher

it to confirm

and manuals.

If you are unable to use BOTH feet when you drive without getting confused then you have some issues that are limiting. And the solution for people like you certainly is that you should only use your right foot. If the day comes when I can no longer use both my feet without getting confused I will downgrade to a simpler driving style too. It's just like when your eyesight deteriorates, you compensate by driving slower, leaving bigger gaps, wanting DRLs, only driving in the daytime, etc. I guess I should have been more sensitive to the limitations you old people have to deal with; I suppose that's one of the reasons you get so cranky and riled up over something as trivial as which foot people use to apply the brakes.

Reply to
Ashton Crusher

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What you claimed was this:

"I hold my foot in the air for anywhere from perhaps a few seconds to half a minute. It moves back and forth between resting next to the pedal and hovering over the pedal when I want to be ready for braking. It's all just second nature. If traffic is slowing up ahead my left foot will shadow the brake without my right foot moving at all and I just maintain speed. I can easily cut a half second of reaction time if something happens, which translates to 44 extra feet to stop in at 60 mph and in the process I don't have to jerk the passengers back and forth taking my right foot off the gas to be ready. "

Faced with that same situation, I would simply take my foot off the gas pedal and start applying the brakes to increase the separation. I think Harry and any other driver concerned with safety would too. I think that is what any driving school today would teach. Do you disagree? As for jerking the passengers back and forth, I don't know what kind of vehicles you are driving or how you drive, but seeing a need to increase separation in traffic, I do it all the time without jerking anyone around.

You choose to focus on one half of the equation, which is the slight fraction of a second reaction time advantage having your left foot hoovering in the air over the brake pedal brings. You completely ignore the other obvious part, which is doing it your way, you still have to account for the time it takes your right foot to come off the gas pedal, the throttle to close, etc. Doing it our way, you are already slowing down, increasing the separation margin, instead of hauling ass down the highway maintaining a smaller separation, while thinking you are safe because you have some stopping distance advantage. That's why I say your methods are unsafe.

You have a paradox in your theory that is insurmountable which others have pointed out as well. You admit you only cover the brake when you think you need the tiny fraction of a second margin you say it brings. Yet, if it is foreseeable, then instead of covering the brake, the really safe thing to do is simply slow down right then. And for the true emergency, your left foot is no closer to the brake pedal than a right foot driver's. In fact, it may be actually farther away than a right foot driver's foot that is on the gas pedal.

I also think others who have said the hoovering method can lead to riding the brakes have a valid point. I see people on the highway occasionally with the brake lights flashing on and off for no apparent rational reason. Not a lot, but then there aren't a lot of left foot brakers either. I personally don't know a single one. I would suspect that when you use the hoovering method, it's easy to start to just rest that left foot on the brake pedal. After all, that allows you to be even safer right? Then your foot is right there on the brake most or all of the time.

Reply to
trader4

I even gave you the exact NAME of the system I was talking about, so you could look it up.

Reply to
salty

WRONG. 100% W-R-O-N-G

I even gave you the exact name (Saxomat) of the system so you could go and read about it for yourself. You really are a complete dullard, Clare.

Reply to
salty

Clare is not talking about the transmission I mentioned BY NAME.

See: Saxomat

Reply to
salty

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