And some people say there's no God..........

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The story about your dad may be true but it proves nothing about science. It isn't even about science. The rest of what you wrote also isn't about science and is at best an unsupported assertion not a "matter of fact". Rob Brown
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I've got an undergrad degree in physics myself, and I concur. Religion is not science and never will be. It is far beyond that.

Fantastic design without designer is a harder thing to buy into than belief in an Almighty alpha and omega. These atheist types are trying hard to reply in clever & witty ways, but they remind me of hayseeds who see priceless works of art as miscellaneous smearing of paint on a canvas.:)
-- Vic
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That's nice, deary.
Now, fuck off, you pompous piece of shit.
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
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Victor Faraday wrote:

Oooooh... "far beyond." Over the rainbow, I presume.
(Sigh)
Hand-waving noted.

Since when? This "Almighty alpha and omega" must then have an even *more* "fantastic design" than that which he/she/it/they designed!

Uh-oh, someone is picking up a clump of straw and giving it humanoid form...

And differing aesthetic sensibilities apply exactly how?
655321
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Victor Faraday wrote:

Then, who designed the designer?
--
There are none more ignorant and useless,
than they that seek answers on their knees,
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On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 12:11:15 -0700, "Rev. Karl E. Taylor"
Good question and makes the point that there was no FIRST designer. Everything comes directly from the previous moment of itself. In Buddhists terms it's called Mind Stream, or Mental Continuum. It's pure mind and encompasses everything. WE are the creators of our world, each of our worlds.
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Can you present any evidence that everything comes from the previous moment of itself? Can you present any evidence that we are creators of our world(s)? Aren't you simply saying people imagine everything?
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wrote:

Well, you can prove it yourself. Aren't you now reading this, and didn't a previous moment happen, now another, now another? Time/space continuum. It's pretty popular among the quantum physicists.
In Buddhism, everything we see, do, things done to us, by us is all based on previous lifetimes and how our karma ripens in this lifetime. So, with each life, provided I have enough merit to take a human rebirth, we come closer and closer to being able to reach an enlightened state and no longer have karma, the karma is fully purified after many lifetimes of practice, meditation, etc.
I am indeed saying that everything is void of independant arising. Everything is dependant on previous moments of itself, and is empty. Emptiness is a huge part of Buddhism's delight. I'll give an example of something they did in the film "Little Buddha." A Lama was trying to explain emptiness to a man. He filled the cup with tea then broke the cup aka the vessel for the tea. After the cup is broken, it is no longer a cup. But the tea is still tea. Contents and container. The container changes, but the contents do not.
This is a basic belief and yes it does require a relative amount of faith, but it's pretty much in line with quantum physics. If you wipe the tea up off the floor with a towel, and then wring it out, you still have tea.
How are things beginningless? Well, can you trace back your every thought and every action you did in just one day? In one hour? I mean every single thought, glimpse, notion, action, every snap of a finger etc. Buddhists say there are 64 thoughts to snapping your fingers.
So look at something inanimate. Those examples are also beginningless. A simple one would be a rubber gasket. First, a person has to become interested in growing rubber trees, then then need the seeds or plants which are delivered by a truck, driven by a driver, who needs gas, which comes from refineries, which comes from oil wells, which have pipes built by people and the driver uses a truck, how many people were responsible for the building of the truck, each part, machinists, assemblers, engineers, designers, who makes the glass, how is that delivered...and this is a HUGELY brief explanation that everything is absolutely dependant on something else and the previous moment of itself. Else, we'd all be here for a moment then gone. By the time the two dollar gasket reaches its final destination, one is baffled that it doesn't cost a million dollars!
Look at what goes into a simple pencil, trace it all back to the acorn if you can. The pencil is 25 cents. How? Amazing.
So this theory is certainly more tangible than saying a man in the sky called god created everything. This method come about by deep thought and meditation, self exploration, etc.
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I disagree with those physicists; time is an illusion, not a place, a thing, or a dimension. The past no longer exists. The future does not exist yet. Humans think in terms of time only because we can remember the past and deduce and evaluate evidence of past events.

I think you've mixed Buddhism with Hinduism. But I guess you're allowed.

And the cup is still a cup, just broken. It can be repaired. Apparently Buddhists think anecdotes about common things have some kind of profound meaning and are explanations, but they're not.

Again, time's an illusion. And memory, for whatever reason, is faulty.

People can say anything.

Exactly my point: we are here for just a moment. Only "now" really exists.

Deducing that things which happened in the past affect this moment or the future is not very amazing. It's obvious; no meditation and exploration is necessary. And it's obvious there are no gods.
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wrote:

No I didn't. I am a student of Lama Zopa Rinpoche and Venerable Robina for years now. I've been to His Holiness' teachings and I am a practitioner. This is how we view things. Maybe you are not aware that Buddha Shakyamuni (historical Buddha) is from India and was a Hindu practitioner until he found The Middle Way.

No, it is no longer a cup because it must function as a cup to be one. Because it is empty of inherent traits, it is now a bunch of pieces of broken clay. It is no longer a cup, but the tea is still tea. Our minds are the tea. It goes from vessel to vessel. Everyone dies, but nobody is dead.

So your answer is no. You cannot. Time is a measure. Eventually when people become fully awake, time is absolutely an illusion. In life as a lay person, someone who is not enlightened still have a measure of time even if it is illusionary. Actually, the term Buddha used is delusion. We delude ourselves. This is all the pollution we are cleaning out when we meditate.
Does water look clear? It's H2O, right? Not really. All water has a lot more in it that hydrogen and oxygen but we don't call the pollution H2OP45. We're still deluded and believe it is water, clear and without any other element.

I guess you are just cranky and unwilling to believe anything nor are you willing to consider another way of thinking or experiencing. .

Nothing I said is in opposition to your contention. Each moment coming from must then come from a prior moment in order for it to be thrust into this moment. I agree there is no past, no present.

So you are saying you are enlightened? No exploration is necessary? How about someone who never saw a television or read a book. How do they draw a conclusion? Self exploration is always necessary for growth. But, I am coming from a different component than you are. Mine is spirituality, yours is scientific (or so it seems). I am an atheist, no doubt about it. That doesn't make me void of beliefs or faith.
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Victor Faraday wrote:

Too bad you wouldn't answer the replies. Again: assuming a designer, how do you derive Christian theology?

Acknowledging paintings as smearings on canvas does not detract from their beauty.
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Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet Victor Faraday ( snipped-for-privacy@bellsouth.net) made the light shine upon us with this:

One must believe something is a design before he can designate a designer. Take the human body, for example. Perfect in every way. Or is it? If we were designed, why did the designer build in a self-destruct module known as the appendix, which serves no purpose other than to become inflamed and destroy us? And what can be said of a designer whose design fails during the critical stage of reproduction? A designer (described by worshipers as perfect in every way) that allows horrible birth defects to happen is either a monster, or a figment of your imagination.
--
Uncle Vic
aa Atheist #2011
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On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 14:55:21 -0400, "Victor Faraday"

From "Patriot University?"

Science is based on facts as far as we can know them. Religion is based on superstition and wishful thinking.

Your lack of comprehension is not evidence for a god.

And you remind me of gullible marks who can be fooled into seeing miscellaneous smearings of paint on canvas (Jackson Pollock, anyone?) as "priceless works of art."
Idiot.
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writes:

And beyond that, the Intelligent Design enthusiast needs to justify a moral Designer who creates the various astonishingly clever mechanisms which allow organisms to inflict endless misery and death on humanity.
Such examples are endless, but my favorite is the trypanosome which causes malaria. This organism sports a mechanism whereby it continually shuffles the proteins on its cell surface, thereby causing the human immune system to be forever one step behind, playing an endless futile game of catch-up. This amazingly simple and elegant Design feature has caused the death of countless millions.
As I say, such examples of intricate, elegant, and seemingly malevolent Design can be multiplied endlessly; parasitology alone provides many more. It's hard to see any way out of this dilemma for the ID'er. I suppose some possible justifications might be:
-- the Designer didn't create THOSE bits, subsequent evolution did. -- the Designer's evil twin, the Malicious Designer, got to muck about in the Workshop. -- humans deserve it, so what's the problem here? -- the Designer's ways are mysterious indeed. -- any other suggestions? -- cary
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Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet Cary Kittrell ( snipped-for-privacy@afone.as.arizona.edu) made the light shine upon us with this:

My father had malaria, picked it up in the South Pacific during WW2. Incurable. He didn't die of it, but he was always cold. He'd wear a thick sweater in the desert in the summertime. He had to sell our house near the beach to buy one about 20 miles inland because he couldn't take the cold. I don't recall ever seeing his bare arms or legs. Some design, eh?
--
Uncle Vic
aa Atheist #2011
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On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 20:46:32 +0000, Cary Kittrell wrote:

You forgot the best one of all:
    -- suffering is good for you.
--
MarkA
(this space accidentally filled in)
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writes:

Oooh, yes. So noted.
-- cary
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On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 14:55:21 -0400, "Victor Faraday"

Again I will bring up my own religious belief; I am a Buddhist practitioner in the Gelugpa tradition, Mahayana sect, the Greater Scope. Much of Buddhism is scientific. You cannot have the first thing. It's nice to think god created the original chicken, but atheists do not believe in that.

It's a harder thing to buy for YOU, but for me it makes perfect sense. I don't like being called "these atheist types" because I don't go off saying a harsh word about your beliefs. I assure you, I grew up in NYC, I am by no stretch of the imagination a hayseed, and I've stood in the Philadelphia Museum of Art and thought, look at that miscellaneous smearing of paint on a canvas. It doesn't make me ignorant to see art the way I see it. It's way too subjective, so this is just another generalization you are making.
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Victor Faraday wrote:

For you - you don't get to speak for anyone else. Which is a very good thing.

Actually some of us find it quite easy and naural. I think I smell jelousy.

If only you had the brains evolution gave a spider...
Mark.
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On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 15:55:21 -0400, Victor Faraday wrote:

Only if you're blindly ignorant.
How, why did you crosspost this to alt.atheism, and having done so, how can you possibly be surprised at the response?
--
Frank Mayhar snipped-for-privacy@exit.com http://www.exit.com /
Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com /
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