Some people shouldn't DIY (rant)

[J. Clarke]

Started tearing the old roof of the garage, which had been built by the previous owner of the property.

So far, after raking and sweeping off all the leaves and topsoil I could reach from a scaffold (I'm not _about_ to put my weight on the roof deck until I see what it looks like from both the top and the bottom) I started tearing off shingles on the shed part. Got on sheet of decking cleared and decided to take five and vent.

First thing, he used shingles on a relatively shallow slope. Next, along the edge for about two inches there's no deck, just shingles. Of course the shingles have long since failed so the ends of _every_ rafter are rotted. There's no sign of anything resembling an underlayment--no tar paper, no ice and water shield, no _nothing_, just shingles directly on plywood. Cheap shingles, thin as a piece of poster board. About 9/10 coverage (i.e. not even quite single coverage--I can see plywood between shingles in places). Each shingle got two and only two nails whether it needed it or not. Between two sheets of decking water's been coming down from somewhere higher up--it's rotted the ends of the decking, the top of the rafter, and the roof plate (may not be his fault--haven't gotten high enough to see where it was coming from yet).

That's one sheet of decking clear, 25 more to go.

The guy meant well, but every repair that he's made to the house so far I've had to redo to fix what he screwed up. Been better off if he's just left it alone.

[Leon]

IF you replace the decking, I highly recommend radiant barrier decking. I built a storage shed and used radiant barrier decking and it keeps the interior a lot cooler in the summer. Typically this decking is marginally more expensive than standard decking.

Silver side DOWN

[Puckdropper]

"J. Clarke" wrote in news: [e-mail]:

My little sister's place has the same roof... well, there may be sheeting all the way. The previous (or previous previous) owners had a carport attached to the garage that they closed in. We're probably going to wind up replacing the garage totally, to make sure everything's done correctly.

For anyone thinking about roofing: DO NOT use shingles on shallow pitched roofs. Use rubber roofing instead. Shingles are designed to pass water from shingle to shingle as it moves down the roof, too little of a pitch and the water will get under the shingles and your roof will fail.

Puckdropper

[John]

Wonder if he was related to the mechanical engineer who previously owned the house we're in?

- ceramic tile floor in the hallway has an obvious dip (1/4" or more) in the center - ceramic tile floor in the kitchen had no thresholds even though it was "toe buster" height about the dining room carpet (as well as having a dip in the center) - circuit breakers were double tapped to get 220 to his air compressor - double doors to the screen porch had no weatherstrip between them (opening 1/8" wide and 7' high) - no caulk around the windows or doors - no weatherstrip on sides/top of basement garage door - joint between garage floor and driveway filled with what appears to have been mortar mix (didn't last summer/winter temperature changes)

- don't know if he or the previous owner finished the basement bathroom with paneling and a suspended ceiling

- etc

He had commented about how much it cost to heat/cool the house. I lowered the heating cost $90 from one month to the next by adding caulk, weatherstrip, and storm windows (all paid for by the savings over two winters). Still working on adding insulation...

John

[Upscale]

Well, obviously it lasted for the time that he was there and he knew you'd be along at some point to fix it up. Sounds like workable logic to me. :)

[J. Clarke]

This guy had the garage insulated. My first inkling that there was a problem with the roof was when the ceiling fell down.

[J. Clarke]

Well, got all the shingles off that I could reach from the scaffold--the deck had some obvious problem areas, so avoiding them I raked and swept to the break of the roof. Along the way I put my foot though not only an apparently sound piece of deck but also the 2x6 rafter underneath it.

Decided it was time to call it a day.

Oh, great, thunderstorms coming--now I gotta go rig a tarp over the holes.

[Lee Michaels]

This sounds like the kind of thing that would have been spotted in a good presale house inspection.

[J. Clarke]

A good one perhaps. The guy I paid found evidence of repairs to the bathroom and a crack in the chimney base and that was pretty much _it_. I've been looking for that crack for years and not found it, and the repairs to the bathroom were fine--what wasn't fine was that he didn't fix the condition that caused the repairs to be needed in the first place.

[Fred the Red Shirt]

innews: [e-mail]:

An architect friend told me shingles require a slope of 3/12 or steeper. For shallower roofs he would use roll roofing. This was before there were rubber roofs.

[Kate]

The unfortunate part is, the rubber roofs look like crap.

An architect friend told me shingles require a slope of 3/12 or steeper. For shallower roofs he would use roll roofing. This was before there were rubber roofs.

[Puckdropper]

"Kate" wrote in news:AYkUj.12$C8.4 @bignews2.bellsouth.net:

AFAIK, there's three styles that you can get: White, Black, and granulated. The granulated is like shingles, but without the lines between tabs.

I wonder if you could glue shingles down on top of rubber roofing...

Puckdropper

[nailshooter41]

If it is a true rubber roof like Hypalon, yes it does. But that is a real rubber roof.

You are mixing your materials. Rubber roof does indeed come in Black and White. It is applied and cemented much like an old bicycle tire tube.

However, rubber does not come in granulated.

The granulated material is SBS (modified bitumen) and comes in many colors and although not always, is mostly granulated. It is used on commercial roofs and on many low slope applications. There are different grades and applications methods; some are for "residential type" which are thinner than the commercial grade materials. The thicker type is the only one I used, and it can be purchased in 5 basic colors. Depending on the actual product itself, it can be applied with hot mopped asphalt, cold adhesive or with an open flame torch (called "torch" grade). All are intended for low/zero slope applications and are designed for specific application requirements.

All are "self healing" to some extent and are used extensively as underlayment for low slope applications under shingles or concrete tiles, or where water is known to be expected to travel such as in a valley on a clay tile roof. It fits neatly under the metal and still allows the valley and the adjoining screeds to be mechanically attached without fear of leaks from surface penetration.

No. Not on a real rubber roof. The compatible glue with shingles will eat into the rubber surface and eventually dissolve it. We made a lot of money repairing the roof at a local mall where the Firestone version of Hypalon was incorrectly repaired with a petroleum based product.

But on SBS (modified bitumen) we do it all the time and it works great.

Robert

[J. Clarke]

FWIW, I'm planning on putting down GAF Liberty SBS on the low slope (note--it's not zero slope) area. I figure that if it ever has to come off that's going to be a pain in the butt but it should last me as long as I'm likely to need it.

[Allen Roy]

This sounds like the previous owners of my house. I shouldn't blame her but her lazy children that

Painted the windows shut on purpose so they didn't have to weatherstrip them.

When water leaked in around the windows, they didn't bother to fix the leak but instead just fixed the water damage.

The preferred method of repairing the plaster and brown board for them was trowel it on by the gallon and come back in a few months when that patch failed.

The preferred paint outside was whitewash from a farm supply store.

The preferred paint inside was semi-gloss

When remodeling the bathroom, putting the cast iron clawfoot tub on 3/4 t&g pine plank flooring and then not fix the leaks in the tub drain.

When installing cabinets in the bathroom, they must have had there cross-eyed cousin visiting and let him eyeball the cabinets level.

Put a pull chain fixture above the tub and then use an adapter and lamp extension cord from there to get an outlet next to the sink.

Put copper, cpvc, galvanized, pex tubing, and black iron in as plumbing pipe. Always in the same run.

Put copper, cpvc, galvanized, black iron, and dwv pvc pipe in as gas pipe. Usually in the same run.

The book they followed for electrical repair was written by a 1st grader.

The book they follwed for any type of carpentry repair was written by the above's younger brother.

It was easier for Dorthy to find the Wizard than to trace the route of where any of the 4 electrical circuits went. One went from the panel to 2 basement lights, up to the attic for a light, come back down and get only one of the kitchen outlets, back to the basement for an outlet, up to the bathroom for the light, then to the dining room for an outlet and then to the living room for 2 outlets and then the bedroom for a light. The others were just as horrible.

A square is something fictional to them.

The family saying is "Framing is for sissies. Real men aren't afraid of standing in a door cut into a load bearing wall and not being supported by a header."

Their common belief is "that big wooden beam that runs the length of the house in the center of the basement is to test sharp drill bits and saw blades on".

So yes I can believe that some people should be banned from all Borg and any place they might get any type of house repair materials.

[nailshooter41]

John - just a thought here.

In case the roof is damaged in some way or begins to leak, a direct glue product will kill you. Also, while a quality product like GAF SBS ( I use their AWAPLAN as my choice) will move and stretch with the changing of the seasons, eventually the solvents will leave and so will the elasticity.

Direct glue products accelerate this process as they move with the decking. If you will put down a mechanically fastened non-sanded closed face (not spun fiberglass!) base sheet down and nail/tin cap the crap out of the it you will have a better roof. The base sheet will act as a slip sheet in this case and allow the cap sheet to move independently of the roof, preventing accelerated wear patterns.

Also, in case there are repairs needed or modifications need to be made, the base sheet will be difficult to get up, but not nearly as hard as a direct glue product. After a few years, the direct glue SBS comes up from a wood deck in pieces the size of your fist.

No doubt, you have seen this pdf detailing out the installation procedures and expanded clear shots of the flashing details.

do a lot of roofing and roof repairs as well as having been an inspector for Allied Signal Roofing Division. So if you have any questions you think I could help with, fire away and I will try to help.

Robert

[J. Clarke]

There's a mechanically fastened base sheet for the Liberty system--I'll see if Home Despot can order it for me. Thanks.

[nailshooter41]

Absolutely no problem. If you don't want to screw with HD, just go to a roofing supply vendor and tell them you want unsanded non-adhesive backed base for SBS. They all carry it.

And with business as slow as it is, they would probably be happy to see you in the store. While you are there, don't forget the primer for you metal flashings. It's nasty cheap, but really great insurance for SBS adhesion to eave strip and flashing metal. They have the spec on that link above, but once again, just about any brand of primer will work. We use Henry brand around here as it's all they carry.

Good luck!

Robert

[J. Clarke]

I asked, they said they were "wholesale only" and told me to have Home Depot order it from them.

FWIW, GAF has a kit for the Liberty system that includes the primer, adhesive, etc that's supposed to be sufficient for 200 square feet. _That_ HD has in stock.

[Lee K]

Just had my roof here in central CT replaced last November. The original roof, in place for 30 years and two months, exactly, was of GAF shingles applied directly over the sheathing. I know this because I had the house built originally and the directions, at least at the time, were not to put down underlayment. The deck had one 'hole' that the roofer stuck a rake handle through to prove that it was a 'hole' so he could charge an extra $50 for repairs to said 'hole'. (Actually, turned out it was a battered edge on the original sheathing that was there from day one.) Otherwise the deck was as sound as originally installed.