By the time Ralph Nader was killing the Corvair, the design flaws had been addressed. The Corvair was really a decent car. My high school english teacher had one of the sport models. (I think he still has it!) That car really had some get-gone!
Grant
Charlie Self wrote:
Yeah, because a vague statement like you made could or could not be based on anywhere in that report. I was hoping you could, you know, indicate what page or something.
No response?
Seems to me it takes 45% up to 54%.
You're saying what I've been saying and not what you've been saying. You're right this time, if the airbags deploy, you'll get hurt less.
So, it can save your life in really really bad crashes, it can decrease your serious injuries in merely "really bad" crashes, but it might give you a scrape in a minor injury? The balance seems obviously tilted towards "use 'em".
It's all the data that's available. We're not doing a presidential poll here where the data gathered is a subset of the whole population, we're comparing raw numbers of the actual results. 16% having a dramatically better outcome is significant, I'm sorry if you disagree.
Oh, well, _that_ clears it all up.
You said before short people and children were _harmed_ more than helped. Now you cite (twice) that it's actually a 9% net positive for them. You're contradicting yourself.
Companies like Mercedes and Saab (and, to a lesser extent Volvo) actually give a s*it about safety, and make changes to their cars that aren't mandatory. The first two at least, have allowed anyone to use their safety patents, rather than greedily keeping them to themselves.
Yes, I'm seriously suggesting that, for instance, Saab has designed around safety features since their inception. I'm seriously suggesting that Mercedes invented the concept of "crumple zones", and allows everyone to use their technology. I could go on and on with details (more for Saab than Mercedes as that's where my direct knowledge is), but you'd probably choose to disregard each example in turn.
If they live, the scrapes can heal. You're not really suggesting that a bit of pain is comparable to a death, are you?
If this was a subset, I could see this being sampling error. I don't see anything to suggest this is anythign other than the raw statistics.
I have never said airbags should be used by themselves.
Close. It's more like "even if you don't _know if_ they hit the wheel or dash, since you don't want to be sued for someone becoming paralyzed, you handle the c-spine as if it was damaged". In other words, everyone gets a collar, everyone gets boarded. Some states allow EMTs to clear spinal concerns in the field, and happily I am not in one of those states. You apparently misinterpreted the intention of what the EMT instructor told you.
Yes, of course, because why actually talk about real accident scenes when you can post another link. Or not.
Well, I can talk to ford-guy. He's the dad of a friend of mine. Maybe he's got pictures.
You said "never". Now you're improving to "extremely rare".
If you say so. I'll trade the chance of minor trauma for a chance at not dying, thanks all the same.
Yes, for instance.
Didn't need to be. You said, unequivically, that a patient who is belted will not hit the steering wheel or dashboard, ever.
"seat belt injuries from contact with the dash or steering wheel" is a nonsensical phrase. If you mean "belted passengers injured by car structure impingement" or something, well, maybe it's your google technique.
Depends on how close it gets, dunnit? Your body _does_ come off the seat when you're stopping very fast, even with belts which do stretch.
And you haven't seen dashboards roll?
You keep saying that, and yet...
Look. I'm trying to see if your point of view has _any_ merit, and so far all I get is "it's in the article somewhere", "an EMT instructor friend of mine (I think) said", and "you don't understand stats".
...where people get really, really hurt, or not. Yes, I understand. In other words, they do the most good at the most severe crashes. Go figure.
You're backpedaling from your backpedal above.
Yeah, 'cuz that makes _all_ the difference in the world, injury-wise. Sheesh.
I'll take minor injury over "dead" any day.
Good thing it wasn't a more severe crash then, eh?
I'll amend that to "you haven't paid attention to the dynamics at many crashes, have you".
Maybe in your world seat belts don't stretch at impact. If I thought I could change your mind, I'd bother to google for seat belt dynamics in a crash.
A whole lot of stuff -- which is well beyond the point of diminishing returns. Since he won't look at the evidence and doesn't even understand such elementary concepts as statistical insignificance, and since he can't provide any documented support for his position this whole conversation is pretty much useless.
He's had his say and I've had mine. Anyone who's interested in the truth can follow the references I've posted or do their own research.
--RC
"Sometimes history doesn't repeat itself. It just yells 'can't you remember anything I've told you?' and lets fly with a club. -- John W. Cambell Jr.
You gave me a many-page report as your 'evidence', and will not say what in there you are talking about.
The statistical error -you- are talking about is in a sample which is a subset of all the data. However, the report which you cite seems to _be_ all of the data, not just a sampling. Therefore the 7 and 9 percent are real percents of the total population of data.
You're the one making the statement that airbags do more harm than good, while citing a study showing they reduce deaths by 9% and serious injuries by 7% (or is it the other way around? Whatever). And you say that _I_ don't understand the topic? Sheesh.
I notice you completely evade my questions. One last one. Let's say there is a device which may give you a mild injury where you wouldn't have had any, in a mild crash, but gives you a double-digit better chance of a better outcome in a severe crash. Would you trade a bit of bag-rash for a saved life?
Somehow, I think I know you won't be able to answer that in a meaningful way.
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