Hi Rod -
Only one, that I know of...no lost work, but took two fingertips. This was a
guy with decades of experience too...
Bigger issue for us is having people remove guards. No matter what your
policy is, or how you train people, get caught with a missing guard, and
it's very uncool...
The issue for us is really that we're large enough (say 1000 people) and
have 13 - 14 saws in use that an accident starts to be likely....
The only accident rate I'm interested in is zero.
Unfortunately Rob, that's exactly what ends up causing most of the
accidents, people working around the existing safety equipment.
Properly used, it's very hard to really hurt yourself on a tablesaw.
You've got a blade guard, you've got a splitter/riving knife, you've
got anti-kickback pawls, you should know better than to put your
hands anywhere remotely near the blade, you should be paying attention
and anticipating what might happen, it would take some serious work to
really injure yourself. It's the people who bypass the safety
features (and I suspect bypassing the SawStop is going to be common)
and use their tools carelessly who get hurt.
And it's their own damn fault too.
They're pretty much in every store (or will be) - we started replacing them
at the rate of 1 per month, and will continue until we've replaced them all.
I think every address has a spare cartridge, not necessarily every saw...
Being a commercial user with a number of units at different locations,
I assume that you did some sort of internal evaluation of the
probability of this company staying in business for a reasonably long
period of time to provide parts and service. However, it seems to me
that absent some sort of significant penetration into the other saw
manufacturers, either voluntarily or by gov't force, (or via a
merger/buyout) that Sawstop will find it difficult to stay in
business. I don't know of any other tool manufacturer that can stay in
business selling only a single (very high end) model of tablesaw and
no other tools of any sort. The fact that the saw is in a price range
that can't possibly generate a mass market (as mass markets are
defined in a current consumer oriented world) can't help the old cash
flow out either. I kind of see the current saw as a means of proving
the technology both to other saw manufactureres and to government
regulators more than as an actual going concern business product - but
hey, I am not anywhere near in the market for a $3,000 saw that
wouldn't fit in my shop and I know thjat even if mandated it can't be
retrofitted to my Shopsmith, so I really have no dog in this fight.
Are you a commercial user with injury insurance? If so, what are you going
to do if your insurance company refuses to insure you unless you buy one? Or
at the very least, what will you do if your premiums are greatly increased
unless you buy one?
Aside from the moral aspects of using a SawStop which goes a long way to
preventing the loss of fingers, I believe Lee Valley adopted SawStops mainly
for insurance reasons. If it costs a business money *not* to use a SawStop,
then there's only two solutions and that's either to buy or go into a
different line of business.
This is not an attack of any sort, just an observation with limited choices
for choosing a business direction.
Well, as I noted in my post, I have a Shopsmith and don't have room
for a SawStop even if I wanted one. However, I am the business manager
for a public school district with a couple of shop classes and several
(very old) cabinet saws. I deal with the insurance company (both
liability and workers compensation - as well as property, auto and all
the rest) seemingly every day. Not once has the concept of a Sawstop
been mentioned. There has not been any indication whatsoever that
there would be so much as a penny drop in our insurance bill should we
replace all of those (very old) cabinet saws with SawStops, let alone
a threat that our insurance would be outright canceled. This is
probably fortunate because if tomorrow some gov't agency mandated that
we replace those saws with new $3,000 saws it is likely that the shop
classes would simply go away and we would get yet another space for
pottery classes. ($3,000 for a kiln, no biggie. $3,000 for a tablesaw
and the world is ending).
Be that as it may, if the company fails to establish a viable business
model - and to me one high end tablesaw as the entire company's
product line is not a viable business model - I would have some
concern as to the long term viability of the company and the saw. If
the saw was a major factor in the continuing operation of my business
that would give me cause for concern.
Just curious about something -- who pays the legal fees in a civil case in
Canadian courts? Here in the U.S., each side is responsible for its own legal
fees, and personal injury lawyers typically work on contingency: the fee is a
portion of the settlement if they win, and nothing if they lose. This creates
an obvious incentive to sue at the drop of a hat, because both the plaintiff
and the lawyer have everything to gain, and nothing to lose, regardless of the
merits of the suit. One proposed solution is to make the losing side in any
civil suit responsible for the legal fees of the winner. Is that how it works
in Canada? Or are your lawyers simply less shark-like than ours?
When do the tix go on sale? I want to buy some...
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
That's probably the biggest difference. While Canadian lawyers will
occasionally work on a contingency basis, it's much more the exception
rather than the rule. There generally has to be some pretty convincing
evidence on hand for our lawyers to take on a contingency case. We do have a
legal aid system, but to use it, one has to be very much on the destitute
side to benefit from it. For the most part, it's cash up front by the
plaintiff and that weeds out almost all of the large frivolous lawsuits.
Small claims court (>$10,000 claims) with a less solemn setting is the
closest thing we have to the lawsuit at the drop of a hat scenario.
There is downside though in my opinion. Some cases that "should" be tried
never see the light of day in a court house. I guess that's the trade-off.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but "Does anyone have one?" and
"How's it compare to Unisaws?" are hardly new questions and are
virtually guaranteed to be in the archive. Now, if he had asked if the
drive belts or bearings are easily obtained and replaced, that would
have been an entirely different story.
I have a PM66 and I'm very happy with it, so I'm certainly not in the
market for a new saw to begin with, but even if I was and money was no
object, I would never buy a SawStop, I'd go get one of the new
PM2000s. My problem with the SS is primarily political, I don't like
what they tried to pull and I'm going to hold a grudge for a long,
long time, but also, I simply don't think I need to be protected from
myself. I've been doing woodworking for many years and I still have
all my fingers and toes. Heck, my father worked for many years on a
crappy 8 1/2" benchtop saw with a completely ineffective guard and he
never hurt himself either. Being careful and knowing what your
limitations are is *ALWAYS* more important than having someone's nanny
equipment on your saw. In fact, I can pretty much guarantee I'd never
trip the SS, at least not the way it's supposed to be tripped. Faulty
and expensive trips, as are widely reported, would probably just make
You've never ever cut yourself on anything. You've never tripped and fallen.
You've never hit your thumb with a hammer, accidentally bumped your head on
anything or ever hurt yourself in any way shape or form.
Wow. You must be superman. I'm jealous of all you people who are
invulnerable and can't be hurt. You are the only people who can safely say
that you don't have accidents or do something stupid and regret it
afterwards.What is it like to be perfect?
HomeOwnersHub.com is a website for homeowners and building and maintenance pros. It is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here.
All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.