Ridgid Clearance Prices at the Borg

[Robert]

"The bottom line is that the autoworkers union has made its membership into an expensive source of labor, so automakers are sending as many jobs as possible to less unionized contract houses or Mexico. "

Unions are forcing work to be performed outside of the USA. Unless wages remain competitive, this trend will continue. When the work leaves, what will the blue collar workforce do then? Unions are greedy. I agree everyone should get a decent pay and it should be competitive. I don't agree a large union should be able to bully a company into paying uneducated assemblers premium wages. I don't blame the companies for searching for other labor sources as much as I hate seeing it leave the USA.

[Test Tickle]

Unions are definitely still needed. The times when our country was the most prosperous, from top to bottom, was when unions were strongest. Don't get me wrong, I think they are dinosaurs in many ways, partly because their effectiveness has been depleted by the courts and government regulations.

Don't fool yourself. Your doctors and dentists are in a union. It may not be called such, but what else do you call organizations that present common demands and grievances from their members, negotiate with corporations (insurance) in order to set their wages, represent them when they are accused of wrongdoing, and lobby government for beneficial legislation? Aren't those the major functions of a union?

Granted, Henry Ford paid his workers well without pressure from a union -- at least at first. So are workers supposed to sit back and count on the good graces of their employers to pay them a decent wage? Don't hold your breath.

Let's get rid of the unions. But let's also get rid of the other government regulations and court injunctions. Let's let disgruntled workers and employers have at it.

tt

[Test Tickle]

There are many that do. Migrant farm workers, and those subjected to disreputable "temp" services that charge outrageous fees and transportation charges, and the check-cashing facilities that charge outlandish percentages for their services.

I agree that the system needs alot of fixing, but I haven't seen a politically-initiated idea that had real merit either. Teachers may be very leery and skitish from the way they are treated -- just take a look at the references to teachers in this thread alone. I don't think the current system is anywhere near perfect, but I don't see how the unions can take very much of the blame for it.

Hmmm. I have a stack of the old "Quayle Quarterly" in a box somewhere. Do you remember that publication? Maybe I should scan them sometime.

tt

[Test Tickle]

There is some of the reasons for the unrest and violence around the world. I'm certainly not condoning it, but it needs to be better explained and understood.

tt

[Test Tickle]

just enough to live, but not to live decently? Or to expect any of the things we take for granted? I thought that we, as a people, were better than that.

tt

[CW]

[Charlie Self]

Robert notes:

One big note on this kind of thinking: if you stay off work for 3 weeks, what happens? Someone else takes up the slack. Keep garbagemen off their routes for

3 weeks and check again, if you can breathe without a respirator and are able to dodge the rats.

Charlie Self

"A low voter turnout is an indication of fewer people going to the polls." Dan Quayle

[George]

"Merit" is not in the union lexicon. Acknowledging merit would also acknowledge the opposite - sloth.

The principle of unions is that all doing the same job are equal, though the bloated wages and benefits of today have caused several in our area to sell out the newer members to preserve their status. New hires come in between

50-65% of scale.

[Rick Chamberlain]

No doubt there are, Charlie. And those employers would soon find the pool of workers has dried up.

Agreed. Most teachers would do quite well if they were allowed to negotiate their own contracts based on merit.

Rick

[Rick Chamberlain]

And why not? Because people don't have the skill to negotiate, are too lazy to negotiate, or are afraid that they aren't worth the money?

Negotiation is a part of daily life.

Rick

[Rick Chamberlain]

Come on, TT. You place blame for the union's effectiveness at everyone's feet but their own. Are you telling me the union bosses truly care about the rank and file? Example for you - here in Milwaukee, the county unions rejected an offer by the County Exec to have a 1 week layoff for all employees to help offset the current budget deficit. This was offered so that most employees would not face permanent layoffs. The offer wasn't even broght to a vote - the bosses shut it down.

Is that in the best interest of the brethren?

Similarities, yes. Difference is that doctors can change "unions" anytime they want without suffering consequences.

As for lobbying governments, I thought the union was supposed to negotiate with the company. I find it quite disturbing that unions are able to make political contributions without consulting the rank and file. You're just supposed to shut up and watch your hard earned dollars (union dues) go to serve the interests of the union bosses.

You think that every employer is out to screw the employee? There no doubt are companies like that, but I would think that the majority of them would become a fart in the wind in short order.

Wouldn't that be lovely? One can dream, can't one?

Rick

[Nova]

Rick Chamberlain wrote:rganization? That would work really well.

How many people do you think would be driving Chevy's if GM had to incur the expense of negotiating contracts on an individual basis?

-- Jack Novak Buffalo, NY - USA

[Edwin Pawlowski]

The times, they are a changing.

Never belonged to a union, never wanted to. I have negotiated with one or two though. Some are greedy and don't give a damn about the worker, only what they collect in dues and "health and welfare" benefits as part of the package. I could tell you stories of the negotiations charade.

The smarter unions, however, see the writing on the wall and are doing something about it. They are training worker to do a good job. Training them to learn skills in construction and other trades. They are starting to work WITH management knowing that they depends on this country being competitive or both the company and the union will be history.

Their motivation may still be greed, but the survival instinct is kicking in. Ed

[Test Tickle]

How much does the "American Dream" cost? Shouldn't that be a national goal, before spreading democracy around the world? How much does a family need to earn in order to have a home, one or two automobiles, decent health and dental care, a retirement and disability plan, the ability to send their children to a good college, and the rest of the dream? How many Americans can't even hope to aspire to that? And as greedy corporations cut wages and benefits, taxpayers pick up the tab for them, while corporate taxes are in turn cut. When does it end? Have you ever worked on a dock? I can assure you, it's not simply standing around putting chalk marks on crates. I don't begrudge anyone their wages. Instead of trying to knock their pay down to the level of the working poor, we should be focusing on trying to increase the pay of those at the bottom. This country was interested in doing that at one time, but now it's an "Iv'e got mine, screw you" mentality.

tt

[Test Tickle]

That happened where I worked as well, and it was terribly destructive for everyone, workers and management. But is this an example of strong unions? It sounds like a weak union that caved in and made an expedient but short-sighted compromise.

tt

[Test Tickle]

This is the race to the bottom, to see who can pay and treat their people the worst, while getting the most for themselves. Have you ever worked on an assembly line? It may not take a great deal of education, but I'd wager that you could no more do that job, or empty trash, or clean toilets -- day in and day out, for your whole life -- than your assembly-line worker could teach a class, or clean teeth or set broken limbs. Because they perform a service that you consider menial and uneducated, does that mean they shouldn't be able to afford a home, or send their children to good schools? Won't that just create a new generation of menial workers? A rigid class society?

tt

[Test Tickle]

I agree. It's not about extorting money and running a business into the ground -- that obviously hurts the workers and the union. Neither should employers fight unions to the death, preferring to hurt their own operations simply to "win." There is a middle ground, where everyone can prosper, but I believe that unions and workers have increasingly been on the shorter end of the stick for a long while.

tt

[Rick Chamberlain]

Jack,

Not sure, but companies with as many or more employees as GM (non-union, of course) go through this exercise regularly.

Perhaps I didn't frame the context properly. My contention is that many union workers could be making much more if they were allowed to negotiate directly for a raise based on merit. Unfortunately, my mother in law (who is a teacher for the MPS system) and my dad (who retired from American Can company before they sold out) were forced to take what the union got for them.

Of course, on the flip side, that would mean that many union workers who don't carry their weight would make less. But, isn't that the American way? To reward hard work and initiative and let the marketplace decide the disposition of those who don't share the same work ethic?

Rick

[Rick Chamberlain]

TT, there is no such thing in a free economy as "economic rights". They only exist in a communistic environment. In a free economy, hard work and initiative are rewarded and laziness is not. Isn't that the way it should be?

As far as 1/4 of the country below the poverty line - how many of them are students, part time workers, etc? Where is this poverty line you speak of? Example - a friend of mine has relatives who live in spartan conditions in northern Wisconsin. They choose to live this simple life, and the family makes about $15,000 a year. According to statistics, they are poor. But don't tell them that.

The AMA doesn't negotiate anything when it comes to salaries. The individual doctors or practices do that with the insurance companies and hospitals they work at. The doctors can change insurance providers at a drop of a hat. You can't do that as an electrician or plumber.

Sure, if you really think that most unions are democracies. But they aren't. If the unions really cared about what the rank and file feels, I'd be willing to bet that at least 40% of the contributions would be going to the other party. But, that'll never happen in my lifetime.

Hehe. I'll bring the beer for afterward.

Rick

[Nate B]

"Test Tickle" <

Life's tough. Communism has been tried by many countries. It doesn't work. It's really naive to not understand this.

What's interesting to me is that I will likley see the majority of the world become modernized. Singapore, Hong Kong and Taiwan, for example, are tapped out for cheap labor. When you add the manufacturing infrastructure, the whole economy takes off. Native Taiwan companies are leading the world in computer componants. So much for tying them to an assy line. They learned from our factories, then took the IP out the back door and made their own. Now they eat our lunch. Companies are heading to China now. China, IMO, won't be as easily subordinated. Africa next, South America? Curious how it will end - a lack of natural resources, overpopulation, back to slavery, etc..? Ever wonder why nobody cares about population control - except China? The limits are all in place - interested in how we will adapt when we hit them.

- Nate