If anyone is interested, Home Depot is clearing out the "old" Emerson
made Ridgid tools. I just picked up the 14 inch bandsaw for $349, down
from $449, and the riser block set for $47, down from $59.
I also saw the cast-iron table saw (contractor's style) for $345,
which is about $100 off.
I wouldn't put the Ridgid BS at the top of my list, but for a second
saw, I won't have to switch between blades all the time, and it didn't
put too much of a dent in my wallet.
One suggestion for all employers that are having lower sales primarily
due to higher prices for their goods....lower the end user price. Can
be done in several ways, drop executive pay(a small fraction of the
cost of production) eliminate dealings with unions(a much higher
If there were no unions, peop;e would be free to make their own
decisions as to how much they would be willing to cut their own pay
rather than lose the job entirely................
On 20 Aug 2003 21:18:40 -0700, firstname.lastname@example.org (Eric Anderson)
: One suggestion for all employers that are having lower sales primarily
: due to higher prices for their goods....lower the end user price. Can
: be done in several ways, drop executive pay(a small fraction of the
: cost of production) eliminate dealings with unions(a much higher
: added cost)
: If there were no unions, peop;e would be free to make their own
: decisions as to how much they would be willing to cut their own pay
: rather than lose the job entirely................
Back in the 70s and 80s I would agree with you about the unions pricing
themselves out of the market. In todays global economy its hard to compete
with labor that work for pennies an hour. What's the answer I don't know.
: On 20 Aug 2003 21:18:40 -0700, email@example.com (Eric Anderson)
:>When I heard this, I was disheartened. It just seems like yesterday:>that the Home Depot saved the jobs of the workers from Emerson:>Electric when Sears dumped the line. I wonder what they are going to:>do now. I have not heard any news from the human side of this, but I:>bet it is not pleasant. There is just too much of this, but I don't:>have a good answer. You are not going to stop people buying from the:>lowest cost source, and I can't agree that protective tariffs are the:>long term answer.
:> firstname.lastname@example.org (Quadindad2) wrote in message :>> Not yet, but as I understand it should be soon. New line of Rigid tools built:>> in Tawain.:>> John
Much more complicated than that. A few years ago, our largest customer
decided to do what you said, They chopped the executives first, most office
staff next, engineering also, then held the line of an OK pay for the
workers, squeezed the suppliers for everything they could. We dropped our
prices to them 10%. They paid us 180 days after billing also. That saved
them finance cost, but increased ours as the labor and materials wee paid by
us in 30 days.
We walked away from over $1 million in business when they wanted another 25%
reduction, plus a 6% rebate from the past year's billings. This was far
more than the profit we made so we said goodbye. So, what happened? About
18 months later, they moved production off shore anyway.
Companies invariably cry poor-mouth, extort wage and benefit
concessions from workers, and use the money they save to finance their
move to a cheaper locale.
Take a look at all of the businesses moving into Vietnam to take
advantage of cheap labor and a cooperative government. Did "communism"
win? What a joke. We should skip the invasion and war part, and just
move the jobs there in the first place. Then, the soldiers will have
less to come home to -- at least those who do come home.
This is not a criticism of you or your post, but rather a general
rant. I don't know what the answer is either, but there has to be one.
Everything flows from the economy, and as the economy for the poorest
half of our country declines, so does crime, education, healthcare,
care for the elderly, and so on.
Yep, god forbid those "uneducated" guys make a livable wage. All they do is
stand around most of time right?
Sure wouldn't want the people who actually do the work to make enough money
to buy the products they manufacture, better to use slave labor and let only
those "educated" white collar folks buy it all. Like those hard working
CEO's out there at Enron and GE and the like.
Live better, work union.
"Livable wage????" I offer ONE example of union ridiculousness: The
dock strike on the west coast a year or so ago. Average wage: 75k+
Reason for strike? Resistance to improved efficiency measures, as in
addition of computer tracking of cargo rather than having a 75K
employee put CHALK marks on containers.
unions have caused the death or move of many companies over the last
Another point of thought for you, why is it that most of the new,
non-unionized or less unionized airlines are making hefty profits
while the older, HEAVILY unionized ones are losing money, needing
handouts from us, the taxpayers?
On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 05:17:22 GMT, "John Emmons"
On 23 Aug 2003 09:40:17 GMT, email@example.com (Charlie Self)
How much does the "American Dream" cost? Shouldn't that be a national
goal, before spreading democracy around the world? How much does a
family need to earn in order to have a home, one or two automobiles,
decent health and dental care, a retirement and disability plan, the
ability to send their children to a good college, and the rest of the
dream? How many Americans can't even hope to aspire to that? And as
greedy corporations cut wages and benefits, taxpayers pick up the tab
for them, while corporate taxes are in turn cut. When does it end?
Have you ever worked on a dock? I can assure you, it's not simply
standing around putting chalk marks on crates. I don't begrudge anyone
their wages. Instead of trying to knock their pay down to the level of
the working poor, we should be focusing on trying to increase the pay
of those at the bottom. This country was interested in doing that at
one time, but now it's an "Iv'e got mine, screw you" mentality.
Livable wage? You better do a little research on exactly how much they
make. Laughable maybe.
Case -n- point. I had just graduated college (electronics), working for an
aerospace company on Expendable Launch Vehicles. I worked with flight
hardware for a living. The guys emptying my garbage can were union. They
made up to 3 times more than I did. Granted, I was just starting out
fulltime but already had 2 years of coop experience. Considering the
importance of what I was doing for a living, it amazed me how much they
made. It took many years before I made as much as them. By my 2nd year
working there, I had the authority to sign the DD250, which paid the
contract of General Dynamics for successfully reaching the required orbit
($178,000,000). Still, I made much less than someone emptying my garbage.
I later found out that their starting salary was double what mine was.
Competitive salary for the work performed, I don't think so! Standing
around? Hell no! Most of them sat around! I'd have to ask them to leave
our office when we got off the launch pad. They had to take their card game
Don't take my word for it, read for yourself:
"thousands of laid-off employees are entitled to company-paid unemployment
supplements that give them 95 percent of what they would earn if working.
Moreover, in many factory occupations, autoworkers earn significantly more
than their counterparts in other industries. In 2000, tool and die makers,
for example, earned an average of $19.76 per hour in all industries, versus
$25.76 an hour in auto plants, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics.
"The bottom line is that the autoworkers union has made its membership into
an expensive source of labor, so automakers are sending as many jobs as
possible to less unionized contract houses or Mexico. "
I'm not saying all unions are bad, but I think many of them are a waste. My
aunt worked for Saturn in TN. Since she lived in TN when the plant moved
there, she wasn't part of the company beforehand, and had no union rights.
Consequently, the union forced the company into hiring her only part time,
for six years. She worked 36 hour weeks, had almost no benefits. Only
after fighting the company and the union for years did she get a full time
position. No, she never bought a Saturn and has since quit.
I have spent the better part of 19 years in the aerospace industry working
with contractors and their unions. Never have I seen any benefit to any of
the employees. The "rights" being protected by the union are laws we
enforced anyway. I've seen General Dynamics in CA go on strike, which
forced the company in FL to do so also. Other than the name, the two
branches had nothing in common. 4 weeks without pay, they finally settled.
The FL crowd did not receive back pay by the company or the union for the
efforts. Furthermore, McDonnell Douglas employees at the same space center
were paid to do their jobs while they were out. Way to go union! Oh, McD D
is also union and had no problem filling in for the other company!
Just a few of my many encounters with unions first hand. Your experiences
One big note on this kind of thinking: if you stay off work for 3 weeks, what
happens? Someone else takes up the slack. Keep garbagemen off their routes for
3 weeks and check again, if you can breathe without a respirator and are able
to dodge the rats.
"A low voter turnout is an indication of fewer people going to the polls."
Way to go charlie. Watch for the rats.
If the so called engineer was so smart he should have taken a job as a
at 3 times the engneer rate.
Some of these guys think because they have professional after their name
the think they know everything. They design 1000' buildings. But they
sure as hell would not set foot out on an I beam or even know how to put
That is why it takes all trades to build.
And don't think you doctor or lawyer is not in a union. Not a union as
you know it but by the name HMO.
Lawyers? They go by the trade name of 1/3 thank you.
Life it tough deal with your own problems you will have more time to
Oh and how about school bus drivers? Would you be willing to pay $1.00
per child per day for a safe bus ride to and from school? Bet it doen't
cost that now .
Hate to tell you this, but if all the garbagemen stopped working, the
nation would be brought to its knees a heck of a lot faster than if
all of us engineers stopped working (yeah, I'm one too). Not trying
to flame, but the "importance of " what you do came across a bit
arrogant. The fact is, if there never was an expendable launch
vehicle I doubt the world would much notice. You'd notice trash that
wasn't picked up right away.
Which job is really more important?
And a lot of engineering jobs are being shipped offshore, primarily to
India. It's starting in high tech, but is likely to move to other
disciplines rapidly. Your opinion of unions & protection of American
jobs at much higher wages may change when someone overseas is willing
to do your job, just as good as you can do it, for 1/10 your salary.
As a minute example - have you seen the English on those ATMs
programmed offshore (The question that you think wants a "yes", really
wants a "No", for example)? I know, I know, it's their technical
proficiency that is so far superior to ours, right?
On 23 Aug 2003 11:38:35 -0700, firstname.lastname@example.org (Tom Bergman)
On 23 Aug 2003 11:38:35 -0700, email@example.com (Tom Bergman)
There are an awful lot of people out there who are willing to pick up
your garbage for a small fraction of what unionized workers make.
If every garbageman in the country walked off the job, we could
replace them with people who work harder, care more and cost less.
I don't see that as a bad thing.
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