I'm just glad that all the folks who claimed the automobile was a passing
fancy turned out to be right...god only knows how those idiots like Daimler
and Diesel and Ford et al thought that they could build and sell cars with
no existing infrastructure in place...
It's almost a miracle that things like roads and the automotive fuel
industry sprung up overnight to serve the needs of the people building the
cars, we all know that could never happen again.
Seriously, you guys who continually bash ideas like alternatively fueled
vehicles are fun to read, it's like a car crash, you know you shouldn't but
you have to look.
It's a wonder that anything in the way of transportation or power production
and transmission or the interstate highway system, etc.ever got built at all
given the amount of ignorant pessimism that one reads on the internet.
As for thinking and buying with one's penis, how else does one explain the
Hummer...? If that's not genital compensation, I don't know what is.
Certainly some buyers think of their machismo when buying however, an
overwhelming number of SUV buyers are housewives/working mothers that need
to shuttle car loads of kids and gear around. A Prius is simply not up to
As for your attitude regarding HP, it is typical of a left wing
environmentalist. The arrogant position that your way of thinking is the
only correct one and all others must fall in line - or what - they are
stupid, numbskulls that must be taught a lesson? I happen to believe that
rational people, given good information, will generally make good choices.
I also find it ironic that the green people are quietly backing away from
their historically negative nuclear stance. Only now discovering that last
20+ years for coal/oil/gas burning power plants spew the dreaded C02 gas
into our planet's atmosphere. (Forgetting the fact that the human
population growth lines up almost exactly with C02 emissions.)
Mike - don't get me wrong, if you want to drive a Civic Hybrid, fine - just
come by sometime and I'll be happy to introduce you to one of my
salespeople. We also have the Chevrolet Hybrid pickup if you what to
protect your green image while still being able to stand and pee.
I see far more SUVs filled with precisely _one_ driver commuting in overloaded
highways than SUVs filled with kids.
When I played soccer, we walked or cycled to the field and if it wasn't a home
game, the team rented a school bus. The SUV is usually an excuse for a solution
looking for a problem. People bought them because they were a fad, not because
they were needed. Sales are dropping now because the fad is fading. The
almost-a-wagon looks like it may be the new fad (e.g. Toyota Matrix)
I see vehicles that weigh twice what my car does and have three times the rated
HP. They are crawling down the highway entrance ramps and trying to enter
traffic at 2/3 highway speed. Those same drivers tell me they need all that
horsepower. What they need is to learn how to drive.
Most drivers use HP because they don't know how to handle their car. The little
sports cars of the '50s could out handle many modern overpowered cars and
those little cars had a fraction of the power that most drivers would accept
Americans judge the car by stomping on the gas pedal and expecting it to go
woosh. That's hardly a reasonable estimation of a car.
And transportation engineering studies have shown the exact opposite.
Major study on fuel economy attitudes in the '70s oil crisis - one question was:
"Have you installed a thermidor in your car to improve fuel economy?"
Approximately 75% of respondents said yes. These are the smart, rational
drivers you sell cars to.
Facts please - What study(s)?
No one is going to stop or criticize you from riding a bike or walking in
order to save mankind. That's your right. I object however, when your
belief system begins to interfere with my desire to drive or sell whatever I
want. You and Ed Begley can drive your EV1's and Prius's all you want, your
free to protest the nuclear plants, (that really helped BTW) and tear down
the hydroplants. Oil is here, will stay a major source of power for several
more generations. If the green people had a lick of sense, they would be
devoting their resources into ways to generate electricity (massive amounts)
without using fossil fuels. They would buy products made locally, not from
places that have to ship them across the ocean in fuel guzzling ships. They
would only use natural fibers (cotton - animal fur) not synthetic ones made
The hypocrisy and self aggrandizement is amazing.
BTW the (few) sportscars made in the 50's are by today's standards, junk.
They were polluting machines and handled terribly, but their power to weight
ratio was pretty good. However, it would be nice to have my old 58' vette
I'll just settle for my Chevrolet diesel crewcab dually 4x6.
Oil is here, will stay a major source of power for several
A couple of months ago a spokesman for Exxon was on a local talk show and
indicated that with only todays technology that we have only used 20% of the
worlds oil supply.
Yesterday the news on NBC indicated that Shale Oil in Colorado can out
produce Saudia Arabia and Iran combined and with oil selling for $70 per
barrel it would be just as economical to remove the oil from the shale.
There was a study hanging around in the early 80's that showed that the gas
company in Utah could economically produce natural gas from the Utah oil
shale, vs $25 bbl oil. The chose not to, figuring that they would end up
having to sell it at regulated gas prices. The risk factors were too
large, and they had most of the natural gas they expected to need from
There are always alternatives. Some of them take more courage and
planning, but there are alternatives.
If I can find my notes from university over 30 years ago, I'll dig them out.
Don't hold your breath.
If you're wasting resources that I think are rightly to be available to my
descendants, I feel I have a legitimate reason to interfere. The implicit
future value of oil is $0.00 according to the wasteful lifestyles of current
consumers. Some of us know that that valuation is wrong.
What a load of BS. I have not said to stop using oil. I have been pointing out
that you don't have to _waste_ so much oil. The technologies available today
can significantly reduce consumption. If you want to live in the past with
obsolete technologies, that's your problem. Some of us would like to see
technology used to improve things. Hybrid technology is a good stopgap measure
for the next several decades until some more advanced technologies are
available. E.g. if the dream of clean fusion reactor power ever stops being
fifty years in the future, then all-electric vehicles may be a good option.
You seem to think that waste=freedom. Well, waste=waste and with the US using
far more energy than it can produce domestically, freedom is threatened by being
dependent on foreign resources. How many of your children are you prepared to
send to die in foreign wars to maintain a wasteful lifestyle?
... and those notes (taken in what, the '70's?) weren't dictated by a
professor with a particular viewpoint or agenda, were they?
There you have it folks. "What's mine is mine and my descendants, what's
yours is negotiable and subject to my judgment of suitability for your
application relative to how it is perceived to possibly affect me or my
descendants in the future based upon my pre-conceived notions." Lovely
I don't think anyone here is saying that the implementation of
technologies that truly save costs are a bad idea. But, those technologies
need to compete in the market, not be forced upon people by the force of
law because of somebody's idea of "public good" wrapped in junk science.
Correction, "using far more energy than it is willing to allow to be
produced domestically". The environmentalists in this country haven't
found an energy project or energy producing scheme that they don't hate and
will fight with every fiber in their being from being developed. Examples
abound, shale oil in Colorado, coal, oil fields in Alaska, wind farms in
California, wind farms off the east coast, solar collection arrays (because
they shade the natural beauty of the desert upon which they are erected),
natural gas fields, nuclear power plants, hydroelectric dams. You name it,
an environmental group has opposed it, taken it to court and fought to
assure that the development is stopped or made to be too costly to be
There is ample energy here if we have the will to develop it wisely
without the hysteria that *any* energy development is *bad* energy
BTW, who gets to judge wasteful lifestyle? You? Who gets to judge your
lifestyle? How about if we get someone from say Vietnam, China, or North
Korea to assess your "wasteful" lifestyle and impose their idea of "frugal"
upon your living habits? One person's "wasteful" may be another person's
"time-efficient utilization of available resources". I would prefer that
decision be made by the person most closely involved in the process -- the
person performing those actions.
If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough
People bought them because they were a fad, not because
Where do you live??? IN Houston the SUV is alive and well and had been
since long before they were called SUV's, I'll admit that sales are slowing
but that is because of the gas prices in the last year.
My wife has a business need for a truck and we went shopping last
weekend looking for a "fire sale deal". They are not to be had.
These guys are only knocking a grand or two off the sticker on a
$25,000 pickup truck. I think the fad is alive and well.
"dealer Invoice" really doesn't mean much more than the sticker price.
There are other incentives, rebates and bonus money kicked back to the
dealer that does not show up on the invoice price. The bottom line is
still going to be what they will actually let you out the door with. I
agree it is nice to know what the internet says the vehicle should
cost but that is not necessarily going to be the best you can do.
I found out there was an extra $1000 dealer bonus out there (Ford
trucks) that does not show up on the "invoice" price. Getting the
dealer to actually take this out of his pocket and puit it in yours
may be hard to do.
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